Status Of Betta Clubs In Australia

[VickiPS]

the thing needs to have liability of members and committee limited, whatever it is (incorporated association, trust, company etc). That's the extent of the advice I can give on that issue, unfortunately - I over-specialised long ago

I think that's everyone's immediate thought, but unfortunately it isn't as simple as incorporating if the club is a national body. Incorporation is governed by State law, and is only 'valid' for the state in which the body is incorporated. Every State's law for incorporated associations is different, too. Then there's issues like the fact that the Public Officer has to be resident in the State of registration...meetings have to be in person or by teleconference...etc etc. Being an incorporated body also imposes quite a number of legal requirements that can limit flexibility and create enormous burdens for a small body, especially where membership (particularly committee membership) is scattered across the country.

However, when there is substantial cash flow involved, or where public or financial liability could be an issue (eg. running Shows, entering into contracts etc), then incorporation might be the only option. I suspect, though, that to be fully covered, there would have to be separate registered State bodies with some kind of formal affiliation at national level. If, however, the consensus is to keep things low-key and primarily promotional and educational (steering clear of major financial commitments), then incorporation might not be really necessary.

I think it would be terrific to start afresh with a completely new association (easier than merging, IMO, and without any nasty hangovers). Depending on the vote of the membership of both clubs, it might (should?) be possible to transfer assets, and to transfer membership to the new body if individuals wish to. I think all the people who've been involved recently with both clubs have learned a heck of a lot, and are MUCH wiser in the pitfalls for young players. I'm pretty sure we all have solid ideas about what activities are worthwhile and what should be steered well clear of, too :applaud:

[Chuckie]

How would people feel about the idea of state-based incorporated associations rather than a national body? We could still all liaise regarding what is going on nationally but avoid the complications of trying to run a national organisation when our secretary and our treasurer were a nation apart and our rules are specific to one state's legislation only.

We could liaise for consisent rules for each state, so that there is a national flavour to it all, but I think maybe we need to look at starting small, on a more regional basis. There will be different focuses in the different states - WA being an obvious example - and expenditure of the organisation should reflect the needs of its constituents.

If the state-based clubs work and we all are happy with how it's going 12 months down the track, we could look into amalgamating under a national umbrella, if there was a discernible legitimate reason to do so.

If there is a silver lining to the experience of the last 2 years for those of us that were involved (either as current committee menbers or as The Quitters who didn't like the writing they saw on the wall early in the piece), it is that it has really opened people's eyes and helped us identify what we need an organisation/association/club to do, and what we don't need it to do.

So - things we don't need the club(s) to do. Gimmicks (T-shirts. Coffee mugs etc). Also I doubt that we really need a hard-copy publication. Why couldn't we just publish club-specific articles etc via AAQ, in a members area? I know we would be more than happy to host that kind of stuff. A hard-copy magazine is nice, but if our priorities are to increase betta awareness, welfare, genetic diversity, species maintenance, shows etc, our focus should IMO be on making that "real" stuff happen, not investing time in designing a pretty magazine at not-insignificant investment cost (especially when you factor postage into it all).

There is a lot we can do on-line at no cost to members. Articles, species maintenance reports, downloadable care sheets etc (I have written one already, it is in the articles section) can all be hosted on-line.

That would free expenditure up for things like displays, shows, subsidised transportation services, campaigns (eg improving the medication that we can get in the country, getting a range of courier companies to carry live fish), a "betta pals" type program, bringing in seed stock for lines we would encourage Australian breeders to work on, possibly even hosting international judges (once the shows really get happening).

Before I became a Quitter, I often posed the question "but why do we need a club to do that, why can't we just do that via a forum?" and no satisfactory answer was ever provided. Now I see that there is a role that an organisation can play - to raise and manage revenue to pay for shows, biodiversity programs and the welfare of the fish. We don't need to waste money on things like T-shirts to achieve our goal. If people want t-shirts with logos on them then hell, we'll design a logo, whack it in the members' area and people can print it and get it transferred onto a shirt if that is what they want to spend their money on - but the choice should be theirs. I believe that membership fees should go directly towards improving the hobby. If wearing a T shirt with the logo on it gets the attention of potential new members then that is great, but it's not a direct enough return in my mind to justify the spending of membership fees on it.

We would need to work backwards, work out what the club needs money for and decide from there what membership needs to cost to fund that, and what legitimate fund-raising could be done to raise the balance. Auctions and raffles come to mind.

Phew! I need a bex and a good lie down after all that!

[Figure_8]

a state based club may be a viable option for some states if there are enough people with enough enthusiasm for the hobby, but unfortuntately that idea simply wont work for states such as WA or Tas. I can understand why your suggesting it, but I think pooling the resources & man power instead of dividing them would be a better way to go if it was at all possible.

[splendidbetta]

Are enough people willing or able to travel interstate for the sake of the hobby?

[Figure_8]

people are doing it now and fish are constantly being sent all over the country - through buying, selling and showing. No different than international shows, a lot of people send their fish internationally but don't necessarily attend the show in person. Plus there is the internet available for meetings etc. If I was to re-join the IBC I wouldn't be attending any of their meetings in person

[splendidbetta]

Yes, but what about the manpower needed to set up shows in each state... if there aren't enough people who are able to help out, is hired help an option? Or is my train of thought not on track?

[Callatya]

I know there are national bodies for some things, I'll have to find out how that is done. Would members in a state other than the sytate in which the club is incorporated be covered by the limited liability thing? And liability does not mean insurance does it? so garage shows would be the responsibility of the host?

[Chuckie]

insurance and liability are different. You get insurance so that your liability is insured. No insurance means the liability is yours. But of members have limited liability then the insurance is really only of interest to the body/organisation itself, I would think.

[VickiPS]

It's a bit complicated, and I don't by any means claim to be an expert or particularly knowledgable on the matter of incorporated associations, but basically by incorporating, the club/association becomes a legal entity separate from the individuals who make up the membership. This gives some protection to members individually should the club be sued, have debts it can't meet etc. A state-incorporated body can apply to be registered as an Australian Registered Body if it intends to carry on business in states other than the one in which it is incorporated. This requires registration with ASIC and is quite expensive, and imposes yet another set of legal obligations. Having attempted to deal with just the most basic obligations attached to a state incorporated body for the last 15 months, I would not be eager to try and get my head around more complications. I don't think the rest of the ABC committee would mind me saying that we all found it rather daunting to learn about and understand all the requirements. What I'm saying is that incorporation/registration or what have you is a hassle, and it may not be necessary. There are still lots and lots of clubs that don't bother to incorporate. If we're looking at primarily locally-based activities, online stuff, production of educational and promotional materials, maybe breeding programs, I don't know that there is a pressing need for legal incorporation. This really needs to be researched properly, and all the pros and cons examined. One of the big mistakes from the past was accepting on faith that certain things needed to be done (or WERE done, for that matter). I guess I'm endorsing the suggestion that we should compile a list of the things that people believe we can and should do, those we'd like to do if possible, and those we will NOT do. Also, collate all of the work that has already been done in the two clubs (for example, some work done on Ethics/Conduct guidelines for breeders and keepers) so it isn't lost. Work out what to do with the clubs' web site material. THEN examine the options available for formalising a Club, and what the pros and cons of the options are. We probably need to think about some expert advice on the latter. Above all, I think everyone would agree that however, we go about it, it needs to be an open process with regular reporting of findings etc, so people can have a say and make up their own minds. Hope this makes some sense! :worship:

[Fishchick]

worth looking into what ANGFA does. They have state groups and a national body.

http://www.angfa.org.au/groups.html

Will see who I can track down at the next Cichlid Group meeting.

Cheers, J

[TraceBruno]

Just throwing some ideas around for the smaller-member states such as WA, TAS, etc.? I was part of a national student organisation when I was at university that had chapters at various universities around the country. Some chapters had significantly fewer members than others and these were "adopted" by a larger chapter, who then helped out with activities. The smaller chapter was known as a "Developing Chapter" and operated as part of the larger chapter until it fulfilled certain criteria (eg. number of active members, financial stability, etc.). This allowed it to become a proper chapter of its own which were then incorporated, had to be audited annually, etc. Would this be something we could possibly do for states such as WA and TAS which are smaller in terms of manpower etc? The WA chapter could be adopted by SA, for instance, and they could share resources, etc. to help WA get on their feet?

[Celeste84]

nice suggestion trace, but for somewhere like tas it'd be a lot harder to borrow a helping hand from another state - just getting there's a bit of a hike i'd say that tas/wa would have to focus more on promotional material (ie: betta awareness, free "how to care for" pamphlets in LFS, some displays of the betta types and colours, let people know the clubs are out there and do help, etc..) to draw in new members and help people join the hobby before really focusing on shows and that kinda thing it doesn't have to be anything expensive, word of mouth does wonders (get to know locals in the fish trade for example), and a few sheets of a4 paper (1 sheet to make a pamphlet) never sent anyone broke i think that if people saw betta enthusiasts more they'd be more willing to try the hobby themselves :)

[najrick]

Saw the topic pop up a few days ago and would have replied sooner but for being busy. It’s certainly a good topic to be discussing and one that will take quite a bit of coordinating if it is to become a reality. Being on the committee of ABC has not been an easy or particularly rewarding experience and to be honest I’m not too sure if being on a committee is something I want to go through again. However a Betta Club is something we desperately need in Australia if only to get some sort of focus on where we are going. Whether it is a merge or a new start I don't think matters. A fresh start is probably my preferred option but either works. I’m a bit hesitant about any incorporated association models and also not overly keen on the state club ideas. I just don’t think we have the numbers for separate state clubs and see more benefits from having one club coordinated by a committee which still needs the quorum but also should be made up of state (or region/division) representatives. The whole club could be run off a forum like AAQ or even a separate one if that is what is decided. Events and meetings can be organized and coordinated and run within each state / region pending membership numbers and commitments etc. If we want to have any credibility with the International betta community we need to have IBC standard shows. The garage shows and displays will only go so far but they are certainly great for betta awareness. However the idea of being sued because some snotty nosed git sticks their hand into a fish jar in my garage only to be kicked in the arse by me would not be so great Well I might not kick them in the arse but the liability is a worry none the less. What I don’t think a club needs to do is micro manage it’s members. A code of conduct and ethics is a must but how far do you go with it. Do you start telling members they must keep a breeder registry or they must cull fish this way or that way? It’s petty stuff I guess but inevitably comes up. I like the species protection programs, no gimmicks, betta awareness, betta care and needs etc. All good. The breeder exchange program – well it has merits but once bitten…….! There are heaps of things that a club can do that one or two people just can’t manage. It needs commitment and no BS. The BS a lot of us had to deal with in the past. I don’t think the commitment has ever been lacking though time and distance has caused its fair problems. But to be fair that could be alleviated with better organization. It needs a lot of thought before proceeding. Anyway that’s my say for now. Cheers, Pat.

[Callatya]

Just a thought, but considering the overall size of the betta community and that we can't really afford to split ourselves into too many sections, what about instead of having a general club, we organise a more focussed show society. It'd have clearer goals (run shows, breed show fish), more defined purpose, not going back over things that are already done, and it would give us something to work with in the international stage. Maybe we could just take things one step at a time, and instead of jumping in at club/association level, we just pick something that is sorely lacking at sub-comittee level and get our teeth into that, and then reassess after 6 months.

[Jess]

With a Club at a national level, members in each state can volunteer meetups monthly/bi monthly. Branching off could always come later down the track. Shows would be best done nationally instead of in each state.

[Bettamuse]

Having a registered club and members is the only real way of assuring that the “destructive elements “are kept at bay. This is a very important thing as we may loose the help of some members and major supporters if this can’t be guaranteed. We found in BA that incorporation was not the way to go for us as we have members not only from around Australia but internationally as well. (for later discussions once direction is worked out) BA, produced a hard copy magazine as we have members that don’t have access to a computer. These members were gained through the shows and dispays we run. A newsletter/magazine is the main way those members keep in touch with the club and its events. Is the aim to teach, share and educate everyone or just people that have computers? I still think a national club is the way to go, merging under one of the club banners that are already existing and recognised. As has been said , if a particular state has large active numbership they can branch off later with the infrastructure and equipment support of the national club. Maybe the two Betta clubs can put forth their case of what they can offer?

[Chuckie]

Is the aim to teach, share and educate everyone or ust people that have computers?

not at all, hence the suggestion of downloadable information - that people with computers can share with contacts who do not.

Certainly people may want the option of a hard copy of a newsletter (which may have to be subsidised by way of a slight difference in fees, as I believe is the case with Flare!), but it seems to me that the majority would access it online, or at least via email.

[Callatya]

Thats no drama really, just have a hardcopy membership fee that covers printing and postage Have it as an optional membership type As someone who'd only access online, I'd rather that I wasn't subsidising other members, theres a bit of a cost/value thing there that needs addressing. Without incorporation, is there a way to limit liability? If you incorporate in say, QLD, does that cover members in other states or only those in QLD?

[Celeste84]

why not send a monthly/bi-montlhy letter to the members who don't have internet access/a computer and ask them if they'd like a hard copy of all the stuff available for that month(s) off the net? then just print it off for the ones who say yes and send it to them. maybe have a small fee to cover shipping and basic print costs (just print it off onto plain white a4 paper - they can then put it in a reference folder if they'd like) but nothing too much, $5 should cover it i'd think? you could also include a monthly itinerary in the original letter to let them know what's happening :giggle:

[VickiPS]

Without incorporation, is there a way to limit liability?

If you incorporate in say, QLD, does that cover members in other states or only those in QLD?

Depends on liability for what. Public liability insurance is a must either way. However, in the case of unpaid debts, breaches of contract etc, in an unincorporated body it is the committee members individually and jointly who are liable. An incorporated body is a legal entity in its own right, and has "perpetual succession" ie. it continues regardless of who the individual members and office bearers are.

Having a registered club and members is the only real way of assuring that the “destructive elements “are kept at bay...We found in BA that incorporation was not the way to go for us as we have members not only from around Australia but internationally as well.

I agree that the club has to have a formalised constitution, membership rules etc but I'm not sure what you mean by registered? Registration usually means incorporation.

An association registered in one state can have members from elsewhere, but the Public Officer (or in some states, the Secretary) has to be a resident, and there is usually an expectation that the majority of members will be within the state. Where it gets complicated for me is if, for example, an association incorporated in Victoria but with the majority of members and committee members elsewhere signs a contract with a Sydney-based company to take part in an exhibition in Sydney and cannot meet the contract. No guarantee that the committee won't be individually liable.

I can see definite advantages in having a national body that is incorporated, registered with ASIC as an Australian Registerable Body, and which undertakes/underwrites any big budget projects, Shows etc. It would make sense if the national body was also the IBC Chapter. The composition and constitution of the national body could and should reflect representation from affiliated state bodies (which might or might not be incorporated?)

I like the idea of having the hard-copy newsletters and publications as an optional extra.

[Betta_Di]

Hi guys (ltns) - I think a formal club is probably a bit too hard at this stage (at least one that is incorpporated - which is a must eventually) BUT could we not try and get set up as a sub-branch of a generalist fish society? That way until we had the sufficient numbers in each state we would still have protection and be able to build our numbers? Many of us have formed local groups which do get together (Hi Jo) and it does make the hobby much more fun ( lfs trawling anyone?) Just my tuppence worth, Cheers Di

[Chuckie]

nice to see you back Di!

[Starwing]

. . . what a load to read in one hit . . I agree with whoever it was that said something about a state based club in tassie not working . . . as to my knowledge, there are like, maybe two of us in tassie actively involved with any of the betta forums (and we have never met in person and have very, very infrequent and limited, mostly one way (from me) communication) . . . would have been 3 if robbie had moved his bum down here, but oh well.

An attempt at a positive idea . . . with states that only have a tiny active member base, why not copy masa http://www.masa.asn.au/masa/about_masa.html (marine aquarium society of australia) and have some state based groups - nsw, vic, qld, and then have an "orphans" group which is comprised of everyone else - wa and tas for example.

I believe masa also include those few internationals that are keen and want to get involved somehow by lumping them into the orphans group somewhere. It's a thought . . .

[Chuckie]

are the committees of the present clubs able to discuss amalgamating? I realise that as a member of neither that it is none of my business what sort of assets would be involved in a transfer or amalgamation but it seems to me that a whole new club would be the easiet thing and give a truly fresh start. Is anyone already a member of an aquatic society? I believe Mango belongs to the KSA, do we have cichlid socirty/ANGFA members here? How are they set up and how do they work? I imagine that the KSA and ANGFA are national whereas the cichlid societies are state based. I have never belonged to such a club (except the ill-fated Australian Betta Association INC) so haven't got a very clear insight into how it would work best/at all, but I would like to keep the momentum of this thing moving forward. There is not much point breeding show fish you neverget to show.... Anyone familiar with the "not for profit" criteria, and whether a betta scoiety/club would fall into it? If so there may be something I can do.

[TraceBruno]

I looked into the not-for-profit thing ages ago for a youth theatre company I was volunteering for and we didn't fit into the criteria so I'm not sure if a betta club would or not.

I'll see if I can dig up the criteria list!

Edit: I lie, the youth theatre group did fit the criteria to be classified as a non-profit organisation - we didn't fit the criteria to allow donations to us to be tax deductible as we were not a "charity".

I've found the criteria!

http://www.ato.gov.au/nonprofit/content.as....htm&page=3