Showing local fish verse imports.

[Fletch]

I really like the discussion that is going on another thread so I thought I would start a new topic. :-).

Please keep in mind we are all intitled to our own opinion and I do not want this to turn personal. This is a real issue if we do wish to see a show scene get off the ground in Australia.

My issue is that it would be impossible at this stage to run a locally bred show only. Jarrod could have held one himself last year but not so this year (yet). Only problem last year was he was the only one. Year before that we both had fish but knew no one else and no club or direction.

1. If we tried ATM, how do we verify a fish entered by "Joe Bloggs" in Sydney is actually locally bred? We do not have enough people breeding fish, let alone having them ready at the same time. We need to get in contact with more people that are breeding and encourage others to have a go. Hence we decide to hold a show.

2. As the amount of people breeding is so low, can we afford to be exclusive to a new member who has purchased quality fish to start breeding but not allow them to show their new fish? As they might never get a good spawn of their first pair, this would be a kick in the guts before they start.

3. We are in the process (I have spoken to Ness. Lol) regarding a agreement the clubs can have so we can enter our fish in each others table shows. This would be great for a bit of friendly competition but relys on trust from all concerned. Still early days but here's hoping. :-).

4.would you enter fish in a comp against imports? Why? If you are breeding good stock, it's an even playing field isnt it?

5. If a club is affiliated to the IBC and wants to hold IBC shows (getting MASSIVE "encouragement" from overseas), doesn't that mean imported fish?

Maybe the club can hold our normal table show with local entries (as eg melb crew send a few pairs up) and we hold one big IBC show for everyone.

Please understand this is a personal view and not an official view of the club. This is a discussion for everyone and I want to hear as many ideas and opinions as possible.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Busman

[afr3178]

Good idea starting a new thread

I hope that sometime in the future there will be enough people wanting to breed and enter betta into shows!

Also, really love the idea behind point 3 and 5. Especially with 5, do you think it would be possible to have it one place, then move it to somewhere else so that everybody gets a shot at looking at all the pretty fishies.

I dont think with current numbers of people breeding there are enough fish to actually have a show with some good competition and lots of different prize getters. Fingers crossed that the Brisbane show will attract a lot of attention and more people will want to get into betta. I think if we want to do locally bred shows, that awareness would need to be raised in more places. I guess more decisions will be made after the coming show.

And point 1... Raises a very interesting point. How would we know?

If I could get my fish to breed, I would definitely enter some of their offspring in a show to show how proud I am of myself and my fish for getting them that far! Also you have to be in it to win it!

[Matt_95]

Well if you could only enter fish that you had bred yourself then there would be no shows, we wouldn't attract new hobbiests and that would stunt the growth of our club. If you enter fish for the sole purpose of winning then you haven't got the point, the point is to have some fun, look at some amazing fish and to attract new members to the hobby.

[Fletch]

I guess the big thing is get involved in your local club, breed some Betta and have fun. If we can get 3-4 strong clubs going, we could really have a lot of fun. Vic Betta has a great table show going and I really like their points system. Also they stop someone entering 20 fish from one spawn to just get points. Well thought out. But if we all adopted the same rules, we can all compete in each others shows. All points tally up to the final, overall yearly winners.

The best part is, using my white fry as example, I send 3 pairs to Ness, she receives my fish, cares and houses them till show, then again cares untill she returns 1-2 pair, maybe. I donate one pair to club (covers return postage that they would cover to return fish I request), sell a pair to any member that may want them, if not return. All care, no responsibility.

Ps. Well said Matt. :-)

[davo]

If you are referring to local bred Bettas then it would be very hard. We just don't have the climate for breeding Bettas to the quality that is in the asian countries.

If you are talking about Killies on the other hand it will be 90% likely that it is bred locally.

[briztoon]

I really hope to have some success in breeding some show quality Bettas between October and January, ready for the Mid year shows next year. But my potential show stock will still have been bred from Asian imported stock.

I would really like to see the show scene take off here in Australia, but for myself, I would be reluctant to send my fish interstate. As mentioned at our recent meeting, most Bettas only have one show in them. After that, they are likely to lose form. They're my Bettas, and if I don't travel interstate to a show, I'm not comfortable sending them down South and hope they make it through the show and then back to me in good condition.

[Fletch]

I understand Pete.My idea is to send a couple of nice pairs of fry that are raised. This way they haven't cost you anything. I doubt I would send my next breeders or my pride and joy. These will come along to local shows only. :-).

[Wild Nut]

Over on a mostly American forum I am on, a lot of people felt that showing a fish that wasn't yours was cheating. The emphasis seemed to be over there on producing your own stock. A breeder and active shower said this:

If you show a fish you did not raise yourself, then you don't get points.

If I remember correctly, new breeders entered in classes specifically for them and then they had to move up into the more standard classes.

Being heavily involved in dog showing, I can sort of see both sides of this. We show dogs that we did not breed, but we put in all the work, effort and care it takes to get them fit and show ready. Same with bettas. While you might not have bred the fish there is the issue of regular maintenance as well as ensuring it stays in show ready form.

It's difficult, as there are pros and cons to both sides, and there still remains the question of how to identify whether something is locally bred or not. For me personally, showing a fish that is not my own would be a sort of hollow victory. If I were to show fish I would want to show fish that I had bred and produced myself. I always think the main point of showing is to see how the quality of your breeding program stacks up against outside competition.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Wild Nut

[paul]

This maybe more than my 2¢ worth - I'm feeling a bit opinionated this morning.

I think sometimes people forget that it's the animal that is on show. The breeder/owner could be as ugly as (insert your favourite offensive analogy here) and the fish would still be worth winning a prize. Lol

I think what I'm getting at is that it is in many respects irrelevant where the fish has come from. It is how the fish looks and behaves which matters in a show. Most animal competitions (shows, races etc) do not have limitations on owner equals breeder equals trainer etc. We all know that this is not plausible or possible and so it comes down to the animal and not the people around the animal.

Of course the owner will say the animal is good because he/she owns it, the breeder will say the animal is good because he/she bred it, the trainer will say the animal is good because he/she trained it etc. etc. and the list goes on and on. This is where pride and greed start to interfere with the fact that the show is about the animal.

Fair enough, the appropriate acknowledgement needs to go to those involved, and each person's role is in fact important in the production and development of that animal. But how do you acknowledge every individual? Does the Thai breeder who line bred 4 generations then sold you a sibling pair, you line bred a further generation or two (in Australia) from his sibling pair and your fish wins best of show get any acknowledgement? Is that fish an Australian fish, when really its a continuation of a Thai line? It can all get a little silly. So... Let's not allow all this to stop the development of a new show and the support which our fellow hobbyists deserve.

The betta australis group have put in an amazing effort and achieved an extra-ordinary amount in a very short time. First by getting an Australian chapter of the IBC up and running, and second, by establishing a show so amazingly quickly with over 200 entries in its maiden event. This is absolutely spectacular! We should be encouraging local, interstate and international entries to help establish and maintain the momentum that the betta australis guys have initiated. The origin of the individual fish is not as important. There are too many variables, too many questionables and too many uncertainties which could prevent a great show from getting off the ground.

Fantastic work guys, and congratulations. It is the INTERNATIONAL BC after all!!!

[Fletch]

That was more like 5c mate. Lol.

This is not just about the current show. That is happening, as is, regardless but what about the future??

How would you like to see a show held? What conditions of entry, if any. How do you verify that conditions are met?

I believe we need to encourage local clubs, get these strong and with members breeding then compete club vs club. All in friendly fun of course.

Please, EVERYONE, have a say. This is an opportunity to speak up and you will not be shot down. As Chi said on another thread, we are all entitled to our own opinion and it would be boring if we all thought the same.

SHARE THE LOVE.

Edited September 2, 2012 by Busman

[shadoh]

In reply to the original post:

1. There is no way to police whether or not a person has bred a fish or not. For those who are active in their clubs or online, it should be easy enough to verify, for those who aren't and lie about the origin of the fish they enter, they are only cheating themselves. Without compulsory DNA testing, there is no way to be 100% sure and would take the fun out of competitions - which is a big part of this, right? Or am I just delusional?

2. Excluding people Is never an answer. We would see a decline in interest and club growth, as word gets out that the Betta breeding community is an elitist, clique group who don't welcome outsiders without an inspection of their fishrooms to ascertain their breeding status. Once again: No fun = No interest (for me anyway - feel free to your own mini dictatorships at any time. I guarantee that in no time you will be a community of 1)

3. Good idea. I am also willing to participate in the early experiments to help make this as safe and hassle free for those in the future.

4. Yes. I would. I have no problems competing against imports. Without imported Bettas, there would be no fancy Bettas in Australia. Locally bred or otherwise. regardless of who owns a Betta, it has to have been bred by someone. If my Betta that I have bred wins against it, it means I am doing something right.

5. Not sure what you mean by this Paul. A club affiliated with the IBC can hold an international show along the lines of the one Betta Australis is having, and yes, of course there will be imported entries from the international entries. This topic hasnt turned into whether or not we should exclude international competitors I hope...

A club can also hold an IBC sanctioned regional show : ie, an Australian show. At this stage, I don't think we as a community are able to generate the numbers

The IBC also awards the breeder of the Betta by awarding points to the breeder as well as points to the exhibitor, thus making it more attractive to show Bettas you have bred yourself.

Table shows are great for learning what judges looking for at bigger shows, are a great testing ground to see how fish you have bred shape up against others and I strongly encourage it. As for large shows, bring it on. To be fair I think location should be moved around the states each year hosted by the local club/s.

[Fletch]

Relax mate, this has not turned into anything other than a discussion. :-). You know my thoughts on all these issues.

I am just putting ideas out there. We want the club to be inclusive to all including imported fish but does this put local breeders off? How do we overcome this issue? Why does it put people off? Ect ect.

[BettaObsessed]

Why not have 2 sets of prizes, one for breeders who are showing fish they have bred themselves and one for everyone else who are showing imports and other people's fish?

[shadoh]

It's all good mate, not getting fired up or attacking, just trying to get my thoughts on each topic out there. Sorry if I offended.

Perfect solution from Bev. Breeders category would solve the issues listed above without discriminating against those who just want to show off an amazing fish they have bought.

Share the love

Follow your bliss

Praise the Betta gods!!!

Namaste

[melbournebetta]

Hey d00ds,

I'm feeling the opposite of Paul and think I'll be offering about 0.2 cents, my hands are cold and I think I have brain damage from last night, this will be the slowest post in the history of ever.

Oh well, I'm at work, it's 19 degrees outside and 12 in my shop/warehouse (bah) what else am I going to do but weigh-in

...wait... this isn't a status update, it's a thread.. right... what's the point? oh - fish.

First off international versus Local... or just fish versus fish?

The Vic Betta Group (IBC Chapter) have no distinction in the classes between locally or internationally bred, to be honest, anything locally bred is either F1 or F2 of an import anyway, and while it's not as easy as "one we prepared earlier and purchased" there's rarely much difference in quality, the clever breeders pick the good fish from their own spawns and show them....(Limited to 3 of the same colour)

Often they've been best in show or place getters....

That was my proudest moment!

There is no difference in quality, well no, that's a lie - but if you're breeding fish that are correct for the show standard, the quality is equal.... the only difference we see, is in how the fish got to the show.

Rewards and points

As we are part of the Aquarium Society of Victoria that happens to have a really cute "point" system: once you collate thousands of points, you get a toaster or something.

This acts an internal incentive within the club to keep participants showing their fish during the various table shows (lots of different species) at their ASV meets, but it also means that at our Betta meets - the VB kids can award points for:

* 1 x point for showing ANY fish that didn't get placed

* 3 x Points for first place

* 2 x points for second

* 1 x points for third

* 5 x points for best in show

* 1 x point per fish in the show that you bred

or something like that - razzi, correct me if i'm wrong.

So as a breeder, even if I've sold that fish to Jess, I still get the point.

It's an honesty system when you're benching in, but let's face it - who are we cheating?

Most of our members know who's breeding what... but if we get bigger in numbers, we won't be able to tell. It's a trust thing when you're benching in. but I think we don't really fret too much about that...

It's a point, you're really no closer to getting that toaster man.

So that's all well and good - but unless you're an ASofV member, the points don't mean anything... you get a certificate to put on ya fridge but. That's pretty amazeballs.

We have no monetary award for place getters.

We wouldn't consider isolating the Aussie bred fish and having a separate show class, while we've got a thriving club and 120+ people following us on facebook and the rest, we still only get 20-50 fish on average in our shows.

I/We might have a slightly different perspective on the imported fish you might want to show at one of our meets - YOU had to have the good judgement to choose the thing, and if you're half decent at keeping and breeding - YOU have to get the bloody thing to a.) live long enough to show at the VB day, then b.) wrap c.) raise the spawn in this crap weather.

So good luck with that. *shrug* Anyone that can keep one of these mongrels alive should get a medal as far as I'm concerned

(Can you tell I had a mass suicide in my sorority and am jaded about keeping these fish?)

Inter-state, Inter-club, Inter-course.

Bus and I had a chat a while back about how to start the cross-over with the clubs, It's a great idea!

However we're never going to get past the risk that shipping interstate is spooky - and while I trust that anyone I send them to is going to look after my fish well, they're still fragile... so you sort of have to let go of that as the shipper and just trust.

I just think it'd be ace to be able to post over a handful of fish when I know the Bris kids are going to have a meet - or even sell them to forum / BA members and ship them up in time so they can be shown. That's cool.

Maybe I shoot through a few extras as donation and they go into a raffle or get sold on the trading table or what'evs. It's kind of like spreading around my blood lines too. So once we get some frigging wraps, we can look at sharing the proverbial love.

IBC IBC IBC

Let me be brutal, and loving, and kind and all of that, but honest....

I'm lazy, and I have a gigantic ego at times - I also have crappy stock at the moment, so I'm not going to buy a good fish and send it off interstate to have it show in something that isn't IBC accredited.

is that horrible? it probably is, but im poor.

While I totally get that we are building something really awesome, and you B.A. bro's are killing yourself to get this done (and we are really excited that you are) I just haven't got the financial clout to buy and send anything up, I can't risk it.. I got no sexy fish to make sexy spawns with.

However...

You dangle an IBC acronym in front of me and I'll get all wiggily about buying fifteen fish (I'll get a loan, hell, I don't have to eat for a week) ....and I'll send them up to show, hell, I'll even get a Thai buyer to scout the best in the lands, and bag 'em and send 'em over.

(That's how they do it baby, and that's how you win.)

I still get to breed with those fish when they get back to me eventually, and if I get a spawn - its' a prize winning spawn. YO.

The Melbournites are really excited that the next logical step would be an IBC sanctioned show in Australia - and when it's on, we'll be there in force! (along with my ego)

Buy me a winner (back to that)

This harks back to the previous conversation about this topic, and I've been involved in Horse racing, Dog shows, breeding, training and all the rest of both these species.

It's the same thing.

And you know what? I can breed a horse, raise it, train it just the way I want - and have it break it's leg in a fence the day before it's big race and be $300,000 poorer, or I can drop $100,000 on one that's ready to race tomorrow.

*shrug* If it wins, I'll have a horse-spawn.

You know, even if the horse wins the melbourne cup, I'm the owner and I get all the big money (or the certificate to stick on my fridge) ...whatever - people are still going to want to know WHERE that fish-horse came from, who bred it and why it was so good at what it did. The breeder still gets the right kind of acclaim by people wanting to buy their stuff down the track... cos it wins, cos it's good.

Okay... can I have a cup of tea now?

I'd also like some chocolate.

You'se guys all know me, I'll speak my mind, and I hope it's not too abrupt or unkind, just playing honest - we're all in this wiggidy-wak fishy nerd community, and it's come along in leaps n bounds n stuff in the last few years, us VB lot have strained a few muscles trying to get it up, and the BA efforts are obvious - so it's cool we have two strong clubs - but we need so much more.

Sydney, pull your finger out!

WA - get busy

Tasmania - Where is nanna jo? I'd smuggle some halfmoons down my knickers if I knew there was someone out there that would breed them.

Hungry.

x

[afr3178]

I agree with what Ness said. I really like the ASofV points system.

Talking about the clubs... Is there an IBC judge in Vic?

I hope we can get an interstate competition/ show (whatever it's called) going. It would be heaps of fun to compete state vs state.

I'm enjoying reading this thread and the different views/ opinions that people have. Regardless, I just hope AUS can get a larger betta scene operating in the future!

[melbournebetta]

Amen to more!

someone Lea & her partner Toby (?) are currently the only IBC accredited (are their accreditations still valid?) anyway - they're our only qualified Judge/s in Australia.

Hopefully this all changes with the enthusiasm demonstrated by other states.

(:

[shadoh]

There is talk if we can get the interest and raise the funds into bringing an international IBC judge out to hold a "judging school" to get accredited IBC judge training started here in Oz. Of course we will need an IBC show scene up and running, as judging at IBC shows is part of your apprenticeship. Let's face it, not all of us can afford to go to Thailand to train and then back and forth to serve an apprenticeship at several shows.

In the meantime, I will be concentrating on my personal goals of creating my own line (got to make it past F2) and lend my support when needed in keeping momentum going. Can't guarantee I will have as much time to spare as I have this "show season" due to personal and family reasons, but will always strive to be an active member of the Betta community.

Ps: someone's partners name is Todd, you were close ;)

[Pyrefly]

Our Objectives

To foster and promote the love of and maintenance, breeding and display of all betta species.

To raise public awareness of loss of habitat of wild betta species and

The need for maintenance of pure strains of wild betta species.

In furtherance to the aims of the club, to affiliate with and/or correspond with kindred organisations.

To provide a good platform for friendly, supportive interactions for the benefit of all members and the long term good nature of the club.

These were our original club objectives, and far as I'm concerned whether for BA events or Australia-wide, promoting this hobby comes far and away ahead of honours and awards.

Yes - It would be nice if Breeders of their own fish got the recognition for their extra hard work. Breeding these fish in this country isnt easy. Yes, it will be even nicer when the Australian scene is developed enough to hold Breeder-Owner only classes or themed tableshows etc.

But right now, IMO, the priority is where it ought to be and everyone involved is doing a fantastic job bringing it along. :dance:

[melbournebetta]

Well said Fly,

....and oops, Sorry Todd! (eep)

On the judging school bit - I'd be 2402% behind that happening, as the way the judging system and accreditation works now, it's too expensive for "volunteers" to maintain or even achieve judging quals - let's face it, judges don't get paid nothin' neither.

While we all acknowledge someone as the guru of betta, she's also running a small business and having a life (one in the same?) so it's understandable that she can't do it all on her own, I'm sure she's enjoying the support network of Betta Australis.

Is she not accredited to run an IBC sanctioned 'judging school?' I mentioned this when she was in Melbs but more about the schooling and less about the IBC side of it.

I think the way it works now you have to get out to IBC shows regularly to maintain your accreditations... summinlikethat

Anyhoo - I can offer the IBC judge pony rides in the victorian hillside, and tea, I make good tea.

Any takers?

[Matt_95]

someone is accredited, she Judged a show overseas last year (Indonesia?) I think Todd's has expired though.

[shadoh]

Sarah! Well said!!

Yes, Matt is right, Todds accreditation has expired. I think you are required to judge at least one show in a 2 year period to keep it up to date. As for judge training, I think it is more of a time issue to expect someone to sort out course material, lesson plans and find the time to hold the required seminars. She did mention getting Hermanus Haryanto over. Being head of Area 6, IBC committee member and trainer of MANY qualified judges, he would be the most logical choice if he was in agreement to do it.

Ness, I found the below info on the Victoria Betta website:

BECOMING A JUDGE

Before starting the Apprentice Judge program, an IBC

member must participate in showing bettas and win at

least 3 places in a minimum of 2 shows in 2

consecutive show years, or place in the top 20 in 1

show year.

1. FILL OUT AN APPLICATION: An Application Form

(IBC Form 10) is found at the end of this chapter.

This form should be filled out and submitted to a

member of the Judging Board or to his or her

designee prior to the start of the first apprentice

event. An Apprentice has three years from the official

start date to complete the training. The official start

date is the date the first event is completed.

Effective 3/15/2007, a person wishing to enter the

Apprentice Program may apprentice one (1) show

with a Certified Judge before attending the Judging

Seminars. The signed Apprentice Application Form

must be mailed to the Certification Chairman

immediately following the event.

2. ATTEND JUDGING SEMINARS: The Judging Board

conducts three distinct Seminars at each IBC

Convention. The Seminars may be given at other

times during the year by any Certified Judge with

prior approval from the Judging Board Chairperson.

It is recommended that Seminars be given in

conjunction with a sanctioned International Point

Show, a District Show, or a Certified Show so that

prospective apprentices may gain experience with

live fish.

The Seminars are:

 Seminar I: This seminar covers the general

anatomy, nomenclature, and characteristics of a

betta. It also includes an explanation of the

least-faults judging system. The seminar

emphasizes the General Standards. (See

Chapter 5.)

 Seminar II: Here the TYPING SYSTEM is the

primary subject with some introduction to the

various Betta species. This seminar emphasizes

the Special Standards. (See Chapters 6–9.)

 Seminar III: This seminar is conducted in the

show room during actual judging. The

apprentice will accompany the judge to observe

and participate in judging fish. This is the "hands

on" opportunity to learn how to judge Bettas.

The judge explains his or her thought process

and techniques (such as bowl manipulation, use

of straws, light reflection, etc.) as each fish is

closely inspected to identify the best in the class.

These 3 seminars are independently distinct and

may be given in any order, as determined by the

instructor.

[melbournebetta]

oh yes - on the IBC website (not ours!) I saw that a while back

(: ...therefore virtually impossible in Australia as we don't have IBC shows - ho well.

Yeah I wasn't suggesting that someone run IBC judging courses (as mentioned, life/business/etc)

But if Haryanto was interested, the Vic gang have a few offers he could probably resist with a Vic leg of his journey (i.e. paid talk and accommodation at an ASV meet)

Bottom line is that we don't have the ibc showz to get the accreditation up, so a fast-tracking system for accreditation (such as someone experienced) would be the only solution.

I would suggest (?)

It's a cool conversation tho, means there are enough dudes interested in Aus that we can at least have a conversation about it

[Brenton]

I apologise for it getting a bit long and for me getting behind the pulpit - but it's Friday afternoon and I'm a little bored with work.

Just thought I'd bump this in light of the recent shows and some dark murmurings around the place threatening to slightly derail all the great work people have done over the last few years.

Sydney and WA have now joined the same ranks as BA & VB in becoming IBC-sanctioned chapters. Australia has now had three shows, two of which held the title of International IBC-sanctioned events.

Next year, who knows, maybe four shows...maybe chapters in SA, Tassie, Canberra, and the NT...2015 might require people to take long service leave to do a tour of all the shows around the place and to say hello to all the IBC judging apprentices also flitting from show to show...nice dream...

I'll not comment on HM's and Ness' delicates

Do I care what some considered better than others, what came first, who came second, today's pitching, tomorrows catching...sorry - side-tracked...as long as the pissing contest happens down wind and doesnt hurt the betta scene (and preferably doesnt offend anybody or organisation trying to do the right thing), I really couldnt be bothered.

If you cant say anything nice, dont say anything at all, or, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem (he's on a roll...)

I've been lucky enough to have met (virtually), some wonderful people in this community, many of who I do class as friends and interact with outside of the forum. I feel unlucky not to have found this hobby earlier to have been able to met people like Lilli, Lissa, Faewyn, or Robbie (and many others of the 'old timers'). People drift in and out of keeping Betta, but I'd hate to see people drift away due to petty bickering and inappropraite banter between clubs in a national scene that is just beginning to get its legs under it.

If the scene doesnt continue to grow, then what's the incentive for SA, Tas, Canberra, or the NT to join the fun? Think back to a time before BA - do we really want to go there? In SA we have one of the oldest Aquarium Societies around that has been continually running - the SAAS - but it has waned significantly over the years after having such high points. The Betta scene in Australia could go the same way if people dont continue to nuture it and give selflessly of themselves without having to worry about being sniped at from the grassy knoll.

Can we all just get back to trying to better the Betta scene, helping each other, and helping our fish. Lets all remember the goals set out by the clubs charters and work to have a great future for all chapters...and above all - have some fun

If you made it this far, thanks for reading, and I apologise once more for such a long ramble...

Edited November 22, 2013 by Brenton

[shadoh]

First of all, I missed the news about WA becoming an IBC chapter! Great news! Well done Les and the gang.

If I wasn't so busy preparing for a presentation in a couple of hours, I would want to discuss this further. Not quite sure what to think - perhaps I need time to sit back and re-read it a few times before I comment. Not sure I understand...