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Everything posted by Brenton

  1. Brenton

    Fry Size

    Recently, there has been a lot of comparisons of everyone's spawns. Some have fry well ahead of the curve while others seem to be lagging a little on what the 'accepted norm' currently is. First and foremost: Fry will develop at their own speed dependant on a number of different variables. Do not panic if your fry are not growing as fast as another breeders. As long as your young are developing correctly and seem healthy, then keep doing what you're doing. In the end, if you take good care of them, they will all grow up to be beautiful adult fish. I would offer these two links as the current 'norm' that everyone is measuring themselves by: Wayne Schmidt's Betta Growth with Pics (Imperial) http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/bettagrowth.htm Jim Sonnier's Raising Fry Growth Chart (Imperial) http://www.bettas-jimsonnier.com/raisingyoung.htm Jim suggests a slightly slower rate of growth than Wayne... To make things slightly simpler for metric only individuals...like me...below the measurements have already been converted for you: (Wayne's chart only goes to week 11...hence no week 12/14/16 comparison) 4 weeks : ¼" – 3/8", or 6.35mm – 9.52mm, or .6cm – .9cm (Wayne – 1.14cm) 6 weeks : ½" – 5/8", or 12.7mm – 15.8mm or, 1.2cm – 1.5cm (Wayne – 2.1-2.5cm) 8 weeks : 1", or 25.4mm, or 2.5cm (Wayne – 3.3cm) 10 weeks : 1 + ¼", or 31.75mm, or 3.2cm (Wayne – 4.31cm) 12 weeks : 1 + ¾", or 44.45mm, or 4.5cm 14 weeks : 2", or 50.8mm, or 5cm 16 weeks : 2 + ¼", 57.15mm, or 5.7cm I would suggest we make our own chart, but this will require input from many individuals over a long period of time and multiple spawns...or some combing through posted spawn logs (might give me something to do at work ), but will be easier to keep up-to-date now that everyone knows we are trying to create our own version. I'm happy to be the point man on this (seeing how I opened my trap, I might as well put in the yards as well), but would very much appreciate everyone's input. Number One Rule - no adding millimetres to reports, but estimations to the half centimetre would be okay (rounding down). So your four week old fry may be 5mm, 7mm, or 1.2cm or you could report it as half a centimetre or 1 cm (with 7mm being rounded down). I know a lot of people currently have fry in the tank, so we may have missed some of the earlier measurements, but that's fine. We need to start somewhere. All you need to do is measure/estimate the size of your largest fry, and give me an average of what you think most of your fry are at, and lodge those measurements here (I've removed the request for the runts - we all have them and they either get eaten or culled most of the time). I will also need to know whether your fry are long fin or plakat, and give them a name (I'm not fussed if you call them black ninjas or BJT20140201 - just something unique please). I'll create a spreadsheet to keep the data and work out the averages, and update that information in this thread. Feel free to send me odd-numbered weeks as well so we can have a full overview. As Jim's chart is the lower of the two commonly accepted measurement charts, I will begin with that as my baseline (I have added a middle measurement for Jim's odd-weeks for completeness): Measurements are total body length plus fins - so from snout to caudal edge. Measurement guides are non-exclusive and so contain sizing from full finned specimens, full x plakats (mid fins), and plakat x plakat pairings. This will lead to an average across all types, but there is now separate charts for full fin and plakat as well. AAQ Growth Chart (last updated 02/10/2014) Week No Av +Gain Previous Mark (10/06/2014) 01 week : 0.45cm 0.43cm 02 weeks : 0.58cm + 0.13 0.53cm 03 weeks : 0.79cm + 0.21 0.76cm 04 weeks : 0.96cm + 0.17 0.97cm 05 weeks : 1.28cm + 0.32 1.21cm 06 weeks : 1.24cm - 0.04 1.22cm 07 weeks : 1.55cm + 0.31 1.55cm 08 weeks : 1.70cm + 0.15 1.70cm 09 weeks : 2.05cm + 0.35 2.05cm 10 weeks : 2.21cm + 0.16 2.21cm 11 weeks : 2.47cm + 0.26 2.46cm 12 weeks : 2.54cm + 0.07 2.56cm 13 weeks : 2.80cm + 0.26 2.84cm 14 weeks : 2.87cm + 0.07 2.92cm 15 weeks : 2.90cm + 0.03 2.93cm 16 weeks : 3.10cm + 0.20 3.16cm The first half of the fry life, in regards to the growth chart, is now starting to stabilise, and even put on a millimetre or more. The second half of the fry growth chart continues to reduce. In general, it seems to take longer to grow the fish to maturity the further south from the Tropic of Capricorn the breeder seems to be. I've managed to split the growth rates between plakats and fancy Betta from the spawn data I've been given. I'll keep the overall as is above and add in the two separate charts below: We seem to have more spawns targeted at the short fin at the moment. If you are breeding long fin, please consider adding your measurements to this thread. AAQ Plakat Growth Chart (last updated 02/10/2014) Week No Av +Gain Previous Mark (28/06/2014) 01 week : 0.45cm 0.47cm 02 weeks : 0.59cm + 0.14 0.53cm 03 weeks : 0.78cm + 0.19 0.71cm 04 weeks : 0.89cm + 0.11 0.86cm 05 weeks : 1.18cm + 0.29 1.03cm 06 weeks : 1.12cm - 0.06 1.06cm 07 weeks : 1.20cm + 0.08 1.20cm 08 weeks : 1.34cm + 0.14 1.34cm 09 weeks : 1.65cm + 0.31 1.65cm 10 weeks : 1.78cm + 0.13 1.78cm 11 weeks : 1.92cm + 0.14 1.92cm 12 weeks : 2.12cm + 0.10 2.12cm 13 weeks : 2.24cm + 0.12 2.24cm 14 weeks : 2.43cm + 0.19 2.40cm 15 weeks : 2.62cm + 0.19 2.38cm 16 weeks : 3.00cm + 0.38 2.58cm AAQ Long Fin Growth Chart (last updated 02/10/2014) Week No Av +Gain Previous Mark (No long fin spawns added/updated since mark) 01 week : 0.40cm 0.40cm 02 weeks : 0.54cm + 0.14 0.52cm 03 weeks : 0.83cm + 0.29 0.83cm 04 weeks : 1.35cm + 0.52 1.35cm 05 weeks : 1.48cm + 0.13 1.48cm 06 weeks : 2.00cm + 0.52 2.00cm 07 weeks : 2.60cm + 0.60 2.60cm 08 weeks : 3.15cm + 0.55 3.15cm 09 weeks : 3.25cm + 0.10 3.25cm 10 weeks : 3.50cm + 0.25 3.50cm 11 weeks : 3.57cm + 0.07 3.57cm 12 weeks : 3.40cm - 0.17 4.00cm 13 weeks : 3.73cm + 0.33 4.00cm 14 weeks : 5.50cm + 1.77 5.50cm 15 weeks : 4.05cm - 1.45 5.50cm 16 weeks : 5.50cm + 1.45 5.50cm As you can see, if I get a weeks measurement here and there, and then large gaps of no data, then it has a significant impact on the numbers, but, any data is better than no data. Over time it will all average out, or I will do something like remove the highest and lowest and average it all out... Always happy to get more data
  2. Brenton

    Teal Marble x Black Dragon PK

    Need a photo of how you've setup the overflow, particularly how you stop fry from being overflowed out of the tank - very interested
  3. Brenton

    Oops they did it again!

    Nothing really valid about my approach - I'm just lazy and it works, but it is a lot slower. More water changes plus regular high protein feds equals faster growing fry - that's been proven time after time. However, having said that, there is a theory floating around that slower grown fry equal longer living Betta. This is taking for granted that at least minimal good fishkeeping practises are maintained, of course (feeding, water changes, general health requirements). Long life has also been attributed to plenty of stimulus for the fish, interaction with both other fish and the keeper - not just during water changes and feeds. So just combine all that in a method that works for you and your situation and you, and your fish, should be fine
  4. Brenton

    Blue Red Multicolour HM x Turquoise HM

    Put me in line for a visit from the spawning gods as well please...
  5. Brenton

    Royal Blue CT x Metallic Turquoise CT

    Look at it this way - you're testing the low end of the temp spectrum... Throw a thermometer in there and get a reading for us to add to the data please. I'm impressed they spawned in less than 28C to start with... BlBl+nm = metallic turquoise...not green - you got me all excited....
  6. Brenton

    Teal Marble x Black Dragon PK

    He looks more royal than teal in the photos, but then I don't know his genetic background either Congrats on the spawn! Here's hoping for lots of fry. What are the goals for this one?
  7. Brenton

    My 2 foot Betta tank

    sorry for your loss
  8. Brenton

    Hello there.

    Hi Zena Welcome to the forum!
  9. Brenton

    Fry Size

    I'm working on it
  10. Brenton

    Fry Size

    I so need to catch up - thanks for keeping the measurements coming Jaylee
  11. Brenton

    Photo limit lifted

    Easy now Jay, you'll do a fetlock if you're not careful
  12. Brenton

    Hello from Adelaide

    Hi Ineke I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say you know Jay He contacted me recently about his "shrimp mama" and her wish to give Betta a go in SA - welcome to the forum...you've come to the right place! Unfortunately, lavender jumbo (or big ear, or ee) plakats aren't my specialty. I'm located in the northern suburbs and am currently playing with Crowntail plakat lines and a line of white doubletail plakats. Feel free to look me up on Facebook See you around the boards BT
  13. Brenton

    Fry Size

    F2 - 20140902a - Recessive Line - week 13 Have released Mr Big back into the general population now that the siblings have grown up somewhat. Although I'm pretty sure Mr Big is actually Ms Big Mr Big: 3.0cm Average: 2.1cm F1 - 20140902b - White DTHMPK Line - week 13 Mr Big: 2.8cm Average: 2.2cm
  14. Brenton

    Fry Size

    All fry are now on defrosted, ungrated bloodworm (ran out of blackworm and it's difficult to find in Adelaide). Growth increases are obvious...it took a while for them to take to the grated bloodworm but ever since, they have they have gone off! Must do everything I can in future to get them onto it earlier. F2 - 20140902a - Recessive Line - week 12 Mr Big: 2.8cm Average: 1.9cm F1 - 20140902b - White DTHMPK Line - week 12 Mr Big: 2.6cm Average: 2.0cm
  15. P0 - CTPK #4 Male Female Goals Reduced webbing True CTPK Return Yellow Return Cambodians (or yellow Cambodians...) Work on Opaque coverage Possibilities Dragon scaling Butterfly Marble Piebald Panda Female anal isn't great but should be balanced by male. 24th August – Pair isolated – female in barracks, male placed in spawn tank. No plant. Just heater, sponge filter, half cup. I began feeding them frozen blood worm - three times a day. Normally they only get a few pellets of an evening. Male built huge nest. 28th - Female went into separate vessel. First introduction sighting. 29th – Female into tube inside spawn tank. Blood worm feedings continued. 30th – Female released. Chasing ensued. Female left untubed overnight. 31st – Wrapping J Female removed after a couple of hours – male tending nest well. 2nd Sept – Tails...and lots of them – 400-500! 3rd - Male removed. He was a little frantic and looked exhausted at trying to chase fry everywhere. 4th - They cover the top of the water surface and can be seen in most other areas of the water column throughout the tank. Easily the biggest spawn I've ever had. I've now decided against doing any more spawns for the immediate future - think I'll have enough to do with the two spawns I do have...
  16. Brenton

    BT's Goals

    So you all know I'm on the hunt for green: http://ausaqua.net/f...opic=15292&st=0 And I'm breeding CT's. So what I want to do now is clearly state my current goals and get advice from those with expereince on the best way of getting there, particularly what stock I should be looking to get into my fishroom. Goal 1: Green CT's I currently have three female irid turquiose CT's, 1 possibly half-dragon male turquiose CT, 1 male irid turquiose HM Through the ongoing discussions and research, I think I need to bring into this mix: - Additional metallic green or full-dragon green CT's. If CT's aren't available, I'd work with HM or SD. - Also needed are carriers of the red-loss gene so I'm thinking green pastels, or platinums (on order) - same tail shapes as above. - Yellow cambodian females - same tail shapes as above. This should give me the nr1 gene and make any green look much less turquoise (the aim is to go for grass green). Do I need to use the platinum if I introduce the yellow? Or would that depend on the red-gain being present instead of red-loss? Or would the nr1 gene make the red-loss/gain gene obselete? (Obviously still figuring this one out...) So three or four additional fish for this work - yes/no - any other suggestions? Goal 2: Black/white Butterfly CT's This is a new one the wife has recently laid on me, but after looking around, I can see why she loves them. May have to see if I can slip in a green version as well ;)/>/>/> I currently have no stock to work this line. I think I'll need: - Butterfly stock when/if available but barring that... - Melano male CT or maybe a male or female Black Lace CT (can the cello banding be bred out and/or changed to white?) - To gain butterfly from straight CT stock, I mix in Cambodian and selectively breed from there - is that correct? Would the yellow female cambodian from the green CT line be okay for this? - Then to remove the red, I need to work in the red-loss from my platinum - yes? Or is this the same situation as asked above with red-loss/gain v nr1? So possibly another four or so individuals for this line...:)/>/>/> Side Quests There will always be the opportunity to mix and match between lines to come up with something else. In this case the obvious targets would be: Dragon CT x Yellow cambodian CT/HM - looking for a yellow sun A black CT line Maybe even a pastel/platinum line I may need to buy a few beanie boxes... So, putting any side quests aside, any suggestions or advice on stock required to begin my goals? All comments appreciated BT
  17. Brenton

    BT's Goals

    Thought I'd revisit this thread as it's been a while and my goals have become a little more focused and less pie in the sky or so grandiose Goal 1: Green CT's Still is and will always remain a central goal, but is now focused solely on the use of CTPK's. Current stock: F1 Male midfin to be crossed with his sister (male is blue marble with heavy black influence. Female is turquoise) F2 male CTPK (female sibling passed before spawning could be arranged - will cross with female DTPK instead) Associated stock: DTPK spawn in growout tanks to improve form F2 CTPK recessive line to remove red wash Goal 2: Black/white Butterfly CT's This is a new one the wife has recently laid on me, but after looking around, I can see why she loves them. Still on the back burner. I currently have no stock to work this line. At some point I will need: - Butterfly stock...preferably black and white - Should be able to work in the CTPK DT and recessive lines into this project to give me the webbing reduction, form, and colouration...need to be careful of cambo or I could lose the black on the body. Side Quests Yellow Dragon half sun - possible result from the recessive line A black CTPK line - this is becoming my winter project. The Black Orchid CTPK line currently stands at F2 with Pairs ready for F3 A pastel/platinum line - possible side result of recessive line I still have a MG male on the side lines (may become another winter project alongside the black orchids.) And I have two females I would love to work into the projects that I've hung onto for quite sometime now. One is a lovely green HM girl - her green is very good and would do well in enhancing my hunt for green line...it's just finding the right time to work it in. The second girl is a green dragon. Her green is only present on the last third of her body and all of her caudal. She's a little over a year old now and the result of one of my first successful spawns. She's almost a pet really, but I'd love to give her a shot in the spawn tank at some point. I also have a male Gold HMPK....but these girls and boys may never get their chance to shine because I have no space and no time to do all the lines I want ....the green dragon girl with the gold male could be interesting though....
  18. Brenton

    JLM05092014 F2

    Must be my eyes (no surprise there ) P0...now there's a question... Technically, I guess it could be referred to as P0, but it's more like introducing new blood into your already underway line so F3 wouldn't be too big a stretch either... Raz - anyone - is there an additional convention for continuing the filial generation count but marking when new blood is introduced? P0 F1 F2 F3* F4* F5* F6** F7** F8*** or maybe P0 F1 F2 F3+1 F4+2 F5+3 F6+3+1 F7+3+2 F8+3+2+1 EDIT: IO knew I'd had this conversation before....http://www.ausaqua.net/index.php/topic/15345-bts-goals/page-2
  19. Brenton

    BJT20140902a - Recessive Line F2

    What's on the cards?
  20. Brenton

    JLM05092014 F2

    Totally agree with Jarrod, although the dark background could be disguising her edges...is she cello on the ends? If you could get a male with good reduction to compliment her...I'd go with the first girl. I may have a black orchid CTPK male who could work with her....if you don't have a suitable fella
  21. Brenton

    Fin Length Genetics

    All good mate - you know me, research lots on the genetic side and luckily some of the info stuck. I knew it was around somewhere, but I did have to go off and reread a few articles to find it
  22. Brenton

    BJT20140902a - Recessive Line F2

    As you are aware with me messaging you back in the beginning of this spawn...it scared the out of me too!
  23. Brenton

    BJT20140902a - Recessive Line F2

    Thanks J - this spawn and the DT spawn are pretty critical in the overall plans for all my spawns - to gain better form through the intro of the DT and to reduce wash from the intro of the nr1 gene and/or the red-loss gene from this spawn. They have now been split across growouts and spawn tanks so there is less population pressure within the tanks...even more so now that Mr Big, from this spawn, decided he'd eat all his smallest kin while I was away for a few days with the better half... From a massive spawn of 400+, I've only got 80-100 left I think... The spawning side I've got figured out I think (thanks to your chats on conditioning), but I've got a ways to go on rearing the fry successfully. Still, it gives me something to continue working on while I play Dr Frankenstein
  24. Brenton

    Fry Size

    Big whoops - been on holidays so I've missed a week F2 - 20140902a - Recessive Line - week 10 Mr Big: 1.9cm Average: 1.2cm F1 - 20140902b - White DTHMPK Line - week 10 Mr Big: 2.0cm Average: 1.6cm Finally got around to moving some into the freed up growouts F2 - 20140902a - Recessive Line - week 11 I have very few small ones left in one of the tanks as Mr Big decided he'd go snack on his siblings while I was away, and my son didn't realise the numbers were dwindling. These guys have finally been moved over to grated blood worm and I've introduced live black worm. I'm hoping to see a vast improvement on growth now... I have about 50 or so in a grow out tank. There's around 30 left in one spawn tank but I'll be splitting these up over two spawn tanks soon. Mr Big is in a floating container as penance for his snacking. Not sure what to do with him now. He's not big enough to jar, but too big for his siblings... Nearly all fry have shown, or are showing, red in the unpaired fins, but only around the edge where the fin meets the body. Mr Big has lost that red line leading me to the thought that Red-Loss is present in this spawn. Still hoping to see some yellow appear at some point on those that have never shown the red line. Mr Big: 2.2cm Average: 1.3cm F1 - 20140902b - White DTHMPK Line - week 11 All fry have now been split and are in two growout tanks. They are also on the grated blood worm/live black worm diet. Mr Big: 2.1cm Average: 1.6cm
  25. Brenton

    Second spawn Red Crown tails

    I've managed to get to about 50/50 with successful attempts now, but most of my initial attempts failed. I took to heart suggestions that I revisit my conditioning regime to the point I now keep my fish unconditioned unless getting ready to spawn them...that is, my guys and girls only get one fed of pellets each night if they're not in conditioning. When I'm ready to spawn, I begin conditioning by changing the diet to blood worm or black worm 3-4 times a day and a keep that up for a week before introducing the pair, and then they are still kept separate for a few days while being introduced. It normally only takes 2-3 days from putting them into the same tank before they begin wrapping now-a-days. Just something to think about to increase your chances Good luck with your next attempt!