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Somthings Wrong


les
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OK so hear is my problem and I am open to all sugestions

My Red Copper DT Dragon X Red Dragon have spawned for the second time. The first time they spawned there where a nest, wraps, eggs, tails and free swiming only to fade away to nothing after male was removed

This time there was a nest, wraps, eggs, but the male now isnt intrested in the nest and there are only a few bubbles on the side of the tank, for the amount of eggs that were droped there should be more to see

This is what I have eliminated:

1. All betta are feed on the same diet only live food GW, CBW, Mosquitoe Lava and I have two spawns that are rearing at the moment

2. The tank has been totaly taken apart stralized,reformed and siliconed and cured

3. All water is from the same source. Bore water run through a peat bed at the bottom of a 200Ltr barrel then decanted in to another 200Ltr barrel to age with pandanus, Banana and AIL leaves then decanted for use this water is used for all Betta and has never had any problems with it and two pairs have recently spawned in it

So allI am going to let then rest for a while and would like to try them girle with her brother and the male with another female. after that I am at a loss if anyone can come up with any other sugestions I am willing to take it on board and it dosnt matter if you think its silly as it might just do the trick

Cheers

les

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So the second time was a fail aswell? Otherwise I was going to say that having no nest means diddly squat lol. My current spawn had not 1 single bubble!

I know how you feel though, I'm having a sort of similar problem with my 'Panda' line. I get a nest, wrapping and eggs...but no fry :(

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Ok I have only ever had this spawn..5 weeks old and biggest is 22mm +

And another started 1 week ago.Same pair.

They live opposite each other in 10l tanks. During the day I do not card them.

I let them do what ever. They are bored the swim away. at sun down I feed then card for the night or until work time.

When in the spawn tank they did not hurt or tear, just went about the job. Both building the nest.

But I am sure for male female no need to card. carding for fighters.

Roy

PS , I think Yellow is the colour of love for Betta.

Edited by somchai2500
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Are you saying the male has eaten the eggs? Were there any failed wraps? Perhaps the eggs weren't fertilized properly this time around and that is why he has lost interest/possibly eaten them.

Your first lot hatched, so you know they are both fertile. That pretty much rules infertility out.

How long between spawns? Perhaps too soon?

Do you have lids on the tanks? Is there a possibility something got into the first spawn and ate them?

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@ LMF

Yes I feeling ya pain and frustration but I still like your Panda idea and I think you should persever

@ Somachi

Thanks I think :confused:

@ Jarrod

Yes maby to soon but man that girle of yours fills up with eggs realy quick and if she is full wouldnt the eggs be viable? I dont realy know. I didnt think males had to wait to long and the wraps that I saw seemed ok but they may have the angle wrong LOL reminds me ov OH id better not go there LOL thanks jarrod I ll let her breed with her brother next do you think three weeks should be long enough? and then back to the DT three weeks after that

Cheers

Les

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Les, it seems you are describing two seperate problems. The first is the death of all the newly hatched fry. The second is a lack of paternal rearing of eggs.

The second is easiest to explain. Sometimes the boy just gives up on the eggs. Whether this is because they are unfertilised, a bad batch, a bad mood... Whatever, he's lost interest. This could mean that he's going to continue with this behaviour, or that he's just experimenting, or that it's a problem specific to this batch. You won't know for sure. You could consider a fatherless spawn if you don't think he's up to the remaining bit of egg/fry care.

The first is a little more difficult. Environment vs genetics. Could have been anything from an opportunistic infection that found the newly hatched fry particularly tasty, to a genetic problem that means that the fry only develop to this stage of their lives. I had read a couple if scientific paper abstracts on-line which were interesting. One of them described chromosomal abnormalities like "polyploidy" whereby rather than 2 complete sets of chromosomes (one from each parent) they get 3or more sets of chromosomes. This results in some behavioural and fertility issues including fry from these fish developing to the point of "gastrulation", and then dying. The other was that adding salt to the tank water decreases fry death probably because certain protozoal parasites can attack the fry when the water has salt added.

I'm afraid that there are so many possible explanations, that you may never find out. What you have done already is very impressive, trying to standardise and/or remove possible causes. I like your approach here, but aside from trying again, I'm not sure what more advice is available. Here's hoping for some better success soon.

Paul

Edit... weird partial double post thingy, plus... Les now we know how you ended up with a bad back!

Edited by paul
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Holy crap after i read what Les does i feel like a monster. All i ever do is put water into a tub with a heater and put the conditioner in and give it a few swirls. then the next day i use that water to do water changes etc etc... Fish so far all seem to be happy. maybe its a south of the river thing hey Les ;-p lol. sorry mate you have done a lot there i am only a novice cant help you.

Hope all turns out well.

Cheers

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@ Paul

LOL oh and thanks for the advice I will try and look up on the Polyploidy sounds intresting

@ Deano

Yes I draw my water from the bore we have a cave 75Mtrs under the house so all the water in it is filterd through limestone and it tasts great to drink but as for fish it is realy high in calcium Bicarbonate I am looking at getting a filter for it and that will help a bit

Cheers

les

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Have you spawned other dragons in that water before? I wonder if they have inherited something from their mahachai ancestors which makes that water unsuitable. What is the hardness of the water after it has been filtered through peat? Does it actually become softer or just more acidic? Can you dilute the bore water with rain water? My suggestion would be to try and give softer water during spawning and into the first few weeks of life and then slowly acclimatise them to harder water. Hopefully you could get them used to it and the next generation will cope better. Although there is always the possibility that dragon eggs simply can't remain viable in hard water.

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Hi Razzi

Yes I have successfully spawned my Green Mustard Dragon HM PKs in this water. My PH is 7 to 7.1 but I havent tested for hardness as I was going off of feel and its ability to hold bubbles I will buy a pen to test it. I have his brother who was bought as his sister in another Tank so I will put in with a spare copper girl that I have and see how they go she has good length of body so they should be a good match. Thanks for you sugestions and I didnt even think of the mahachi influencs so I will take all this on board and let you know how things go thank again

Cheers

Les

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Well it was the water I had a dead bird down the bottom of the barrel so I have empted them out and will try and figure how it got in and how to prvent it again the water didnt smell bad but obviousely it was not good for new fry I have lost all fry except for the Green Mustard Dragon HM PK spawn and I only have seven of them so its back to the spawning tanks with conditioned tap water Ill have to do it the old way for a while

Cheers

les

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