Humane way to put a deformed baby to sleep please

[sunnylass]

My second spawn are going beautifully, unfortunately one of the bubs has a really twisted body and he can't swim straight, and nor is he having much luck eating. I don't want him suffering, and would appreciate a humane gentle method to put him to sleep if anyone can help please.

[jusdeb]

wow...its hard isnt it....but you are doing the right thing.

IMO the best way is to put the fish in some of its own tank water and a little aquarium salt into a plastic bag and put in the freezer.

When a human freezes to death they actually go into a deep sleep first and then the body shuts down so i am assuming it would be the same for most creatures.

Ive had to do this myself and once the fish has frozen and ive had a look at it , it seems to have died without pain as the fish is not comtorted and doesnt lose much colour it just looks as if it is in suspended animation.

I generally leave it in the freezer for a day and then dispose of the fish bag and all.

Hope this helps you.

[sunnylass]

Thank you so much for that, I will do that now, as I really dont want her suffering anymore.

[Fishchick]

clove oil is super fast and painless. I think you can get it from Chemists. It is recommended that instead of straight freezing you drop the fish into an ice slurry first.

However, freezing is an acceptable method.

[HBH]

Interesting info on the subject, freezing is not recommended.

http://www.ratemyfishtank.com/articles/81

I have always used the clove oil method.

Vheers

[Chuckie]

freezer. fish are exothermic. They don't get 'cold'. Just fall asleep, then into a coma, then die.

faewyn tried clove oil once and had a terrible experience with it - she may be able to elaborate?

[y2jdaze]

I've heard very bad things about using clove oil... I've personally used the freezer method with no troubles (and i'm one of those snoops that have to look every 5 mins) they just go to sleep and there's no stress, no panting or gasping for air, no thrashing about etc.

I've also heard the ice slurry method is good too as it basically shocks them and they die vertially instantly.

[Chuckie]

just to clarify, by freezer I do not mean 'dump your fish in an ice slurry" (although that is a popular method), I mean "put your fish in a bag, cup etc of its own tank water, cover the container/seal the bag so it can't jump out, put the whole thing in the freezer and leave it in the freezer for 24 hours.

The method not recommended in the link by HBH refers to the ice slurry method.

The AVMA does not advocate freezing fish as an acceptable method of euthanasia; the only way they would approve of cooling would be to deep freeze an animal already under deep anesthesia.

As I said above, the fish is unconscious before it freezes, so my method would suit the AVMA's criteria (FWIW, since we're in Australia!). And I am not an 'old timer' who hasn't bothered to research alternative methods.

Koi gradually go into a state of torpor in European ponds that totally freeze over (ie, no O2) year after year with no ill effects. All fish - tropical or not - are cold-blooded and common sense dictates that they cannot sense that they are 'freezing to death' or even that they are cold. They are the same temperature as the environment around hem, unlike mammals which certainly can sense that they are cold, as they have a body temperature to compare it to.

Just pre-empting the arguments I have replied to 163 time before about why i still choose the freezer method :)

[splendidbetta]

I'm not sure Lisa; Fish are vertebrates and have thermoreceptors. These receptors could be sensitive to pain and/or trigger a pain response and/or receptors could be present which respond to pain due to temperature.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/...-in-vertebrates

Thermoreceptors in vertebrates » Fish

Many species of modern bony fish (teleosts) are sensitive to very small changes of temperature of the water in which they live. Various marine teleosts, such as the cod (Gadus gadus), have been trained to swim half out of water up a long sloping trough in response to changes of as little as 0.03° to 0.07° C (0.05° to 0.13° F) in the temperature of the water flowing over them.

More detailed conditioning experiments with freshwater fish show that they can distinguish warm from cold, discrimination being made on the basis of thermal change rather than on absolute temperature. Temperature sensitivity persists in these animals when the nerve supplying the lateral line is cut but is abolished after transection of the spinal cord. When freshwater fish are trained to seek food in response to a change in water temperature, they are found to discriminate differences of less than 0.1° C (0.2° F). Goldfish (Carassius) have been trained to discriminate between warm and cold metal rods that have been placed in their tanks. Consistent responses are obtained only when the rod is at least 2° C (3.5° F) colder or warmer than the water. Practically the whole surface of the fish, including the fins, is found to be thermosensitive.

This mode of temperature discrimination need not be ascribed to the function of specific thermoreceptors; it could depend on skin receptors that are sensitive to combined mechanical and thermal stimulation. Indeed, electrophysiological recordings from nerve fibres originating in the skin of fish support the latter view. Changes in the electrical activity of these fibres are elicited only when the skin is touched by some solid object; yet the frequency of this mechanically elicited neural discharge is heavily influenced by the temperature of the object used in touching the fish.

Elasmobranchs, such as rays and sharks, have distinctive sense organs, called ampullae of Lorenzini, that are highly sensitive to cooling. These organs consist of small capsules within the animal’s head that have canals ending at the skin surface. The capsules and their canals are filled with a jellylike substance, sensory-receptor cells being situated within each capsule. Recordings of impulses from single nerve fibres supplying the ampullae of Lorenzini in rays (Raja) and dogfish (Scyliorhinus) reveal steady activity of the receptors at constant temperatures between 0° and 30° C (32° and 86° F), the average frequency maximum appearing near 19° C (66° F). Rapid cooling causes transient overshooting of the stabilized discharge frequency, while rapid warming produces transient inhibition of the impulses. In some single fibres, cooling by 3° C (5.5° F) leads the frequency to overshoot by about 100 impulses per second. It remains an open question, however, whether the ampullae of Lorenzini are to be called specific thermoreceptors, since they also respond to mechanical stimuli and to weak electrical currents.

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/...ges/P/Pain.html

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/127/5/1159

:)

[Chuckie]

I didn't say they can't sense temperature, in the sense that if the temperature around them alters suddenly they are aware of it. But if their systems shut down as the temperature around them drops, they're not conscious to sense pain. Kind of like the old guys in Russia who would pass out on a park bench after drinking vodka and die of hypothermia in their sleep. They are mammals, and certainly sense discomfort when cold, but they're not conscious to experience it.

Anyway, everyone is welcome to debate it in my absence .

[splendidbetta]

I'm willing to concede that to you, because I don't know of any research into the "psychology" of tropical fish as they get cold. :)

[Bettarazzi]

I think the point that is being made here is that if you put the fish in the same water ie warm, and then put it in the freezer, the resulting gradual drop in temperature is equivalent to anaesthesia. Assuming that the decrease in water temperature doesn't occur faster than the drop in the fish's body temperature then the theory is that they won't feel it. Nothing to do with psychology. The question is simply whether they suffer or not. Freezing is the method recommended for the general public to euthanize cane toads. I would have thought the two animals were similar in the way they sense pain.

[khachdatinh]

I think you can feed to larger fish. baby fish has a lot of nutrition in it like baby brine shrimp

[Anasfire]

This is what I do. I feed my deformed bettas to my Tiger Oscar. I understand this method isn't for everyone and some may see it as cruel but it's the circle of life. In the wild smaller fish would be eaten by larger fish anyway and I often get a bag of feeders for my tiger oscar so how can I condone feeding him feeder fish and not bettas just because we grow attached to them and they have cute little personalities? Why would we hold one species of fish in a higher regard than another? I think it is sad that we get somewhat detached from it all but as I said it is the circle of life and I won't allow myself to get upset about something that happens in nature everyday. Mother nature is not flawed, we as humans are. If the ice method works for you then by all means give it a go and good luck to you Sunny let us know how it went. I am curious as to how effective it is. I've seen live marrin put into the freezer before being cooked and they come out not moving at all which really is the most humane way of doing it. I often wonder if the fish I feed my tiger oscar die instantly or if they are alive in his stomach until they suffocate but I try not to dwell on it too long or I start to feel bad.

Anyhoo, that's what I do. Good luck in your spawn Sunny, they are all gorgeous so far!

[Chuckie]

do you feed him diseased fish, or just deformed ones?

[Anasfire]

Just deformed ones. I find diseased ones die of their own accord so I don't really need to do anything to cull them.

[jusdeb]

Yeah as said in nature predators first go for aged , injured , sick and deformed prey.

So barring feeding a diseased fish to a larger fish its all about balance.

Its good that every one has different ideas about these sorts of things it keeps things balanced as well.

What it comes down to is doing what you think is right. And since all members of this forum seem to be humane and fair it goes without saying that you will do the right thing and your deformed fish wont suffer.

Im all for humane euthanasia but having said that I do have a guppy with a bad spine who functions normally and so have decided to just let her live in the community tank , if she was struggling to live a normal existence she would be frozen.

[Anasfire]

I get them all the time, my son calls them 'Squirly' fish coz of the swirl in their spine. Maybe they get squeezed a little too hard out of the birth canal :unsure:

[sunnylass]

I used the freezer method and it seemed very gentle and humane, so in future that is what I'll continue to do if the need arises.

[Guest Dynamite]

I euthanize differently depending on the size of the fish, If the fish is small like 1.5 inches or smaller i feed it to my oscar and polypterus sen. if it is 1.75 or so and like 6 inches i use clove oil or freeze, But if they are larger than 6 inches if yoiu go right behind the head at the spine and take a sharpe kjnife and slice it they are dead instantly. I know most people can not do that but it does work, very well.

[lpiasente]

I used the ice slurry method and it's not always instant so I don't do it anymore. Freezer I think is best. The fish don't ever end up in the corner of the bag looking like they are trying to escape.

[fuzzy_dragonfly]

Officially your supposed to knock them out with clove oil and then send them to the freezer because apparently it does cause them discomfort. I don't know for sure I've never asked a fish....

Quickest method is usually the best.