Matt_95 Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 I was just reading the about the species maintenence program on the IBC site, it says some stuff about record keeping. I was wondering what you guys do, do you have some sort of table? On a side note, is there any sort of species maintence program within Australia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 I know Wayne (Fishbites) is in the process of trying to gather info about bloodlines and a complete database for the wilds. Very early stages at this stage but will be invaluable once collected and documented. I am extremely keen on preserving some of the endangered wilds, if we can. As for personal notes, most of mine are in various threads, spawn logs. That is one of the main reason mine are long winded and detailed. :-). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_95 Posted December 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Was Davin doing something aswell? Did a search and can't find it... I was thinking something more breaf, like a speedsheet or something, so I can just go back over it and see their pedigree and basic notes, pretty much what is on the IBC website. Of course a spawn log is better for a detailed record, it would be hard to find those little bits if information in a big thread though so a sheet with the basics would he handy. Would a system like giving each pair a name such as Pair A, Pair B ect. The month and year you got them be good? Then the subsequent fry can be A1, B1 ect. Just a thought I had... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbites Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 The IBC species maintenance program hasn't been doing anything for years - I emailed the guy who was the contact person for the site and was told they didn't have the password to update anything so they are going to amalgamate it with another site on other anabantoids.... seems pretty ordinary actually..... I've started putting together a wild type resource but haven't had much time lately..... KiwiBigD has a loose sort of register or wild type breeders in Australia but not sure if that's up to date still..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_95 Posted December 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 That's a shame hopefullly they can get it off the ground If I can help in anyway let me know, I would love to help out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbites Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Matt empty your inbox.... Your help and enthusiasm could be used / useful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_95 Posted December 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 I just cleared it then :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kermadum Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Yeah I don't think KiwiBigD has been keeping his database current. He knows I have wilds (he gave me some of them) and I'm not on his list, so I suspect there will be plenty of others out there who aren't too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somchai2500 Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 At the AS of V xmas party on last night Ness and Michael and I were discussing a database solution for record keeping. I am happy to investigate solutions that may work on both the Mac OS and Windows.There are plenty of existing templates available. A small amount of design will be needed. But depending on requirements from various breeders could get quite involved. The question is: Do we standardize naming/referencing across Australia or per breeder? Not a fan of spreadsheets as a database. Regards Roy Mods do we/ can we have a seperate thread for Database/ Record keeping. or will the Genetic thread suffice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melbournebetta Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Somchai smrt.. knows codez... make record keeping work. I'm thinking about it at the moment, I want to start line breeding my Salamanders, and need to ensure the kids aren't IN bred just LINE bred - and while Somchai has some "cousins" it's already getting a bit confusing about who's who. So (to answer your original question matt) at this stage I was going to collate all my pics into a dodgy photoshop family tree. Standardising codes would be helpful - but like Razzi said lastnight - some people's coding systems are comPLEX What sort of things would you need to record? Breeder/Date of Birth/Origin (Australia/Thailand etc)/ F1-F2 etc ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
les Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I was sure I have seen somthing on the wIder net it may have been Joep that had writen somthing on it I keep my spawn records seperet to my Fish id log and use gene symbles for pheno and geno so I have a record of what the fish looks like and what it carries Blue Betta on ab had a record system that you could purchase its under books I think but wasnt what I was looking for. Cheers Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billphil Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I wrote a breeding database on Access a few years ago for the Apistogrammas I kept then and now have it converted for my wild Bettas. You really need a user interface simple system to record breeding successes and failures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_95 Posted December 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Well as for what would I would like to record the IBC site says this. Record Keeping is the primary responsibility of each breeder. All species in the SMP SCM has been assigned a code. Each breeder fish given a code must be tracked and the death of the breeder must be notated. The following information must be recorded at each spawning. pH, temperature, water volume, feed, tank set-up (including filtration, substrate, plants), hardness, and when available, TDS and conductivity. Results of the spawn and if possible to raise the spawn to a size where the sex ratio and numbers can be determined. All of that seems good, I did try record keeping for my guppies a while ago on excel, it didn't work out to well. I think some sort of database would be excellent. If there was some sort of standardized naming system across Australia then breeders could just put the details of their fish in to see where it has come from, who has related fish ect. So if I was going to use that referencing system I used as an example before it could go something like A0nov11 and B0nov11, if you made a pair from their fry it would be something like AB1mar12 or whenever they hatched, does that sound like a good system? I'm just brainstorming here and putting ideas out there, probably doesn't make sense to all of you. The biggest problem I can see with that is what happens when you cross different generations what do you write? and when it gets a few years down the track, the letters could get really complex like ABGXYZE23Jan20. Anybody have any ideas for a better referencing system?Oh and if you were dealing with splendens, you could give each gene a letter such as R for red and r for nonred. So something liek Anov11Rr would show the fish is homozygous for non red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kermadum Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Does anybody know anyone that works in the zoo system? There are breeding databases like these that exist in their cross zoo breeding programs. They would have already dealt with issues like those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadoh Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 You could be onto something there Matt. Mind you the code would have to reflect the name of the breeder (say, for example initials) ie: the fish you bought from me would be JN280611 (my initials, the date fry hatched: 28 June 2011.) Something in the code would have to distinguish between male and female. Perhaps have M or F at the end of the code eg: JN280611F. Would you keep a seperate database for each species? If having just 1 database, an extra few letters in the code would make it too long: JNSPL280611F (JN: My initials, SPL: Splendens, 280611: 28th June 2011, F: Female... Forgetting a species code for now, a cross between a fish you bred and a fish I bred would look something like this: JN280611F x MT120711M How would you record the code for the offspring? If you bred the pair and used this system, it would be MT121211M. Say there were 25 males in the spawn. Would you then want to differentiate between them? eg: MT121211M1, MT121211M2, MT121211M3...etc Would you also want the code to reflect that they were an outcross to another line and/or another breeder? So many questions my mind is now spinning and no doubt everyone elses is too. Just recording my train of thought. Perhaps I am over complicating it all :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_95 Posted December 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I'm just trying to make sense of all that lol, first thing I thought of is you would also want to include what generation the fry is right? so it would be say JN280611F1 for the fry I got off you, assuming that the parents of your fish arn't related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melbournebetta Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Jarrod, depends how many you're keeping from each spawn too- I wouldn't be numbering each individual fish (or would i??) I'd just have the spawn noted or named - that way they're a sibling if they have the same code but I just ate two aerobars and been staring at DAMNLOL for the past hour. my brain hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_95 Posted December 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I don't think I could be bothered to number each fish either. I'm stumped on how the fry of a cross should be represented though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbites Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Keep it simple..... I hate record keeping - get too much of it for work and really don't want to be in a situation where I'm required to spend more time doing data entry than enjoying my fish :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billphil Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) Why do you need to worry about complex codes which no one can really understand and which can easily lead to error. A proper database set up with history of each fish you get can enable one to keep detailed history going back to the first fish that is recorded in the database. A report will then show the history of the fish to parents, grandparents etc etc You shown for a given fish Record number (computer generated) Name of fish Date of birth/acquisition Gender Species Characteristic 1 (eg colour) Characteristic 2 (eg finnage) ..... Characteristic nn Name of male parent (from drop down menu) Name of female parent ( from drop down menu) Date of disposition You then generate a report to list all fish under 8 months of age which are female and red in colour where the mother fish was XXXXXX Anyone who has bred pedigree dogs has such records just as a matter of course. Edited December 7, 2011 by MelbBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somchai2500 Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) Well said Bill. This is a 10 min mock up of the front page. Yes I know they are both Males. http://www.flickr.com/photos/69609132@N07/6470334679/ Edited December 7, 2011 by somchai2500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbites Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Unfortunately, with wild types there is little difference (hopefully) in colour from parents to the next generation A system that simply tracks breeding stock and fish sold for breeding (rather than those sold as pets and to LFS's etc) would be simpler to work with. Pedigree charts are not hard to maintain but with wild types being kept in species tanks rather than individually jarred like splendens - keeping track of individuals can become troublesome too..... there's never a perfect system unfortunately.... a spreadsheet or a simple database is probably the best.... At the moment - the only real records for wild types being kept are who has what breeders and fry. As so few are actually breeding and distributing the fry for further breeding purposes it hasn't really progressed much past that. I have commenced setting up a wild bettas specific web site with the hopes it can become a repository for wild type information and become a more permanent repository for a publicly available database (with appropriate privacy issues considered). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billphil Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I would never use a spreadsheet - too much work and duplication of data Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrefly Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 The goal being to maintain captive strains of wild type Betta species.. Is there any research into the number of individuals needed to maintain a stable pool of genetics? I know in/line breeding is common in fish and all sorts of domestic animals, but that can't be considered a good long-term practise when it comes to conserving a species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_95 Posted December 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 The IBC site says at least 6 pairs of each species. I would assume if correct breeding was practiced a stable gene pool could be maintained with so few fish. All of the elctfic yellow's we keep today are from a small group collect decades ago, so it can be done... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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