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Record keeping


Matt_95
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I was just reading the about the species maintenence program on the IBC site, it says some stuff about record keeping. I was wondering what you guys do, do you have some sort of table?

On a side note, is there any sort of species maintence program within Australia?

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I know Wayne (Fishbites) is in the process of trying to gather info about bloodlines and a complete database for the wilds. Very early stages at this stage but will be invaluable once collected and documented.

I am extremely keen on preserving some of the endangered wilds, if we can.

As for personal notes, most of mine are in various threads, spawn logs. That is one of the main reason mine are long winded and detailed. :-).

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Was Davin doing something aswell? Did a search and can't find it...

I was thinking something more breaf, like a speedsheet or something, so I can just go back over it and see their pedigree and basic notes, pretty much what is on the IBC website. Of course a spawn log is better for a detailed record, it would be hard to find those little bits if information in a big thread though so a sheet with the basics would he handy.

Would a system like giving each pair a name such as Pair A, Pair B ect. The month and year you got them be good? Then the subsequent fry can be A1, B1 ect. Just a thought I had...

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The IBC species maintenance program hasn't been doing anything for years - I emailed the guy who was the contact person for the site and was told they didn't have the password to update anything so they are going to amalgamate it with another site on other anabantoids.... seems pretty ordinary actually..... I've started putting together a wild type resource but haven't had much time lately..... KiwiBigD has a loose sort of register or wild type breeders in Australia but not sure if that's up to date still.....

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At the AS of V xmas party on last night Ness and Michael and I were discussing a database solution for record keeping.

I am happy to investigate solutions that may work on both the Mac OS and Windows.There are plenty of existing templates available.

A small amount of design will be needed. But depending on requirements from various breeders could get quite involved.

The question is: Do we standardize naming/referencing across Australia or per breeder?

Not a fan of spreadsheets as a database.

Regards

Roy

Mods do we/ can we have a seperate thread for Database/ Record keeping. or will the Genetic thread suffice?

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Somchai smrt.. knows codez... make record keeping work.

I'm thinking about it at the moment, I want to start line breeding my Salamanders, and need to ensure the kids aren't IN bred just LINE bred - and while Somchai has some "cousins" it's already getting a bit confusing about who's who.

So (to answer your original question matt) at this stage I was going to collate all my pics into a dodgy photoshop family tree.

Standardising codes would be helpful - but like Razzi said lastnight - some people's coding systems are comPLEX

What sort of things would you need to record?

Breeder/Date of Birth/Origin (Australia/Thailand etc)/ F1-F2 etc ?

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I was sure I have seen somthing on the wIder net it may have been Joep that had writen somthing on it I keep my spawn records seperet to my Fish id log and use gene symbles for pheno and geno so I have a record of what the fish looks like and what it carries Blue Betta on ab had a record system that you could purchase its under books I think but wasnt what I was looking for.

Cheers

Les

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Well as for what would I would like to record the IBC site says this.

Record Keeping is the primary responsibility of each breeder. All species in the SMP SCM has been assigned a code. Each breeder fish given a code must be tracked and the death of the breeder must be notated. The following information must be recorded at each spawning. pH, temperature, water volume, feed, tank set-up (including filtration, substrate, plants), hardness, and when available, TDS and conductivity. Results of the spawn and if possible to raise the spawn to a size where the sex ratio and numbers can be determined.

All of that seems good, I did try record keeping for my guppies a while ago on excel, it didn't work out to well. I think some sort of database would be excellent. If there was some sort of standardized naming system across Australia then breeders could just put the details of their fish in to see where it has come from, who has related fish ect. So if I was going to use that referencing system I used as an example before it could go something like A0nov11 and B0nov11, if you made a pair from their fry it would be something like AB1mar12 or whenever they hatched, does that sound like a good system? I'm just brainstorming here and putting ideas out there, probably doesn't make sense to all of you.

The biggest problem I can see with that is what happens when you cross different generations what do you write? and when it gets a few years down the track, the letters could get really complex like ABGXYZE23Jan20. Anybody have any ideas for a better referencing system?

Oh and if you were dealing with splendens, you could give each gene a letter such as R for red and r for nonred. So something liek Anov11Rr would show the fish is homozygous for non red.

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You could be onto something there Matt. Mind you the code would have to reflect the name of the breeder (say, for example initials) ie: the fish you bought from me would be JN280611 (my initials, the date fry hatched: 28 June 2011.)

Something in the code would have to distinguish between male and female. Perhaps have M or F at the end of the code eg: JN280611F.

Would you keep a seperate database for each species? If having just 1 database, an extra few letters in the code would make it too long: JNSPL280611F (JN: My initials, SPL: Splendens, 280611: 28th June 2011, F: Female...

Forgetting a species code for now, a cross between a fish you bred and a fish I bred would look something like this:

JN280611F x MT120711M

How would you record the code for the offspring?

If you bred the pair and used this system, it would be MT121211M. Say there were 25 males in the spawn. Would you then want to differentiate between them? eg: MT121211M1, MT121211M2, MT121211M3...etc

Would you also want the code to reflect that they were an outcross to another line and/or another breeder?

So many questions my mind is now spinning and no doubt everyone elses is too. Just recording my train of thought. Perhaps I am over complicating it all :)

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I'm just trying to make sense of all that lol, first thing I thought of is you would also want to include what generation the fry is right? so it would be say JN280611F1 for the fry I got off you, assuming that the parents of your fish arn't related.

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Jarrod, depends how many you're keeping from each spawn too- I wouldn't be numbering each individual fish (or would i??) I'd just have the spawn noted or named - that way they're a sibling if they have the same code

but I just ate two aerobars and been staring at DAMNLOL for the past hour. my brain hurts.

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Why do you need to worry about complex codes which no one can really understand and which can easily lead to error. A proper database set up with history of each fish you get can enable one to keep detailed history going back to the first fish that is recorded in the database.

A report will then show the history of the fish to parents, grandparents etc etc

You shown for a given fish

Record number (computer generated)

Name of fish

Date of birth/acquisition

Gender

Species

Characteristic 1 (eg colour)

Characteristic 2 (eg finnage)

.....

Characteristic nn

Name of male parent (from drop down menu)

Name of female parent ( from drop down menu)

Date of disposition

You then generate a report to list all fish under 8 months of age which are female and red in colour where the mother fish was XXXXXX

Anyone who has bred pedigree dogs has such records just as a matter of course.

Edited by MelbBill
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Unfortunately, with wild types there is little difference (hopefully) in colour from parents to the next generation

A system that simply tracks breeding stock and fish sold for breeding (rather than those sold as pets and to LFS's etc) would be simpler to work with.

Pedigree charts are not hard to maintain but with wild types being kept in species tanks rather than individually jarred like splendens - keeping track of individuals can become troublesome too..... there's never a perfect system unfortunately.... a spreadsheet or a simple database is probably the best....

At the moment - the only real records for wild types being kept are who has what breeders and fry. As so few are actually breeding and distributing the fry for further breeding purposes it hasn't really progressed much past that. I have commenced setting up a wild bettas specific web site with the hopes it can become a repository for wild type information and become a more permanent repository for a publicly available database (with appropriate privacy issues considered).

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The goal being to maintain captive strains of wild type Betta species.. Is there any research into the number of individuals needed to maintain a stable pool of genetics? I know in/line breeding is common in fish and all sorts of domestic animals, but that can't be considered a good long-term practise when it comes to conserving a species.

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The IBC site says at least 6 pairs of each species. I would assume if correct breeding was practiced a stable gene pool could be maintained with so few fish. All of the elctfic yellow's we keep today are from a small group collect decades ago, so it can be done...

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