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Ammonia Problems


Tuataress

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I am having problems with my ammonia readings again.

Nitrites = .5

Nitrates = 5

ammonia = 4

I know this is dangerously high, I did a 25% water change yesterday and 50% today.

There is copper in the water fro, cupermine used to kill parasites effecting my platies and thought this was throwing the readings out but I was informed the copper has probably killed the bacteria. I have added ammo lock and stress ezme.

Is there anything else I can be doing to get it back to normal?

I have just bought 3 new ram dwarf cichilids I have a feeling I might lose them :sad:

Thanks again for the help

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A bottle of Cycle or Nitrovec might help.

Do you have any other tanks you can use to seed this one again? If so, grab either their filter or some of trheir gravel, and pop it in a stocking on the gravel in this tank to try to get more bacteria over.

$ is pretty high, if you have no other options with bacterial seeding, it might be worthwhile doing another water change and maybe adding some ammolock or ACE or something. You will still have problems with nitrite, but it will buy you some time.

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Faced with that, and the fact that you have Rams in there, I'd be doing two 50%'s, back to back - bringing your total ammonia back down to 1 - still high, but not so high - you may need to wait between changes to let the temp climb back up... expect the rams to be in a breeding mood, if they have a potential pair, as big water changes make them think it's spring...

Good Hornwort/Foxtail would definitely be the best way to go - it doesn't need planting, just get it in the water with enough light to thrive and it'll grow cm's per day, soaking up all the nitrogeonous waste it can get... Zeolite, or better yet, Nitra-Zorb from Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, would be a good bet, too - they both can hold the ammonia down so you can grow a bacteria base again, rather than having a HUGE nitrite spike in 4 days...

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My suggestion would be to slowly lower the pH of the water to slightly acidic. You don't say how you took the measurement and whether the ammonia reading is total ammonia, including ammonium ion. By dropping the pH below 7, the very toxic ammonia will be converted to much much less toxic ammonium. After that, look for the source of the nitrogen species, possibly protein or maybe the local water authority is using chloramine.

Keith

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But can crash your PH... and makes measuring the ammonia a real headache, as most kits go off the chart if ammolock is used... and it still leaves you headed for a huge nitrite spike next up - hence either the kickstart the biological filter, or add some plants, or something to absorb ammonia and nitrites...

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I wasn't suggesting it INSTEAD of the other measures. As an immediate short term thing to tide you over until the new biofilter media takes hold/you're in a position to do adequate water changes/get to the LFS for plants or an ammonia sponge, it's not a catastrophe, is it? If you can change the ammonia to ammonium then do everything else to get rid of the ammoniUM (plants, biofilter, water changes) you wouldn't have the huge nitrite spike, and the fish would meanwhile be in non-toxic ammonium not ammonia, which would seem theoretically to be better in the short term.

I am interested because, with bettas in particular, in Sydney in particular, unless you've got enough well aged pre-treated water on hand, huge water changes involving new, treated tap water are a recipe for finrot, velvet and other fun things. I realise Tuataress' fish in question are rams, not bettas, but I am interested in the issue generally, and I have a betta bias! :sad:

Also, how does it cause the pH to crash? And why does it cause tests kits to go off the chart? I thought ammonium would still read as ammonia - why does it make the kit read as though there is more ammonia? (as I said, I'm no chemist :) but interested to know).

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Thanks for all the advice. I'll be back at the store tomorrow to get some more palnts and hopely they will still have the nitra-sorb that I paid for and left there :sad: I have some aqua-clear socks in the bio filter and have transferred some of the betta's gravel into the tank and squeeze the sponges into the water - I didn't want to put them in the tank - but I suppose I could some new ones for the betta if necessary.

How do I know if I have ammonium or ammonia?

Looks like I'll be doing another water change beforee work!!

thanks again everyone!!

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I don't know *how* it causes the PH crash, just that it can, and does... it's not documented by API - I'd *guess* that it's something to do with how it binds the ammonia into ammonium, and is probably related to overdosing - I've used Ammolock, ran one tank purely on it as I needed to get the fish out of a 20L and into the 140L, so I used Ammolock and Stress Zyme, plus filter media rinses, and had everything set up in a few days...

I'd consider the health of the fish to be a higher priority than the speed of the nitrogen cycle, given that rams are delicate fish - I don't have experience with Betta's yet, or with the Sydney water, but in an emergency, with SA water, *huge* (up to 80%) water changes are much better than risking your fish, in any situation where a big water change is called for... bio filter crashes - ph crashes - something toxic in the water, etc... yes, there is a 'shock' in a huge water change, but if it's warranted, it's worthwhile... and with a decent dechlorinator, aging isn't a huge issue here in SA... even the cheap vitapet 'water ager' will treat Adelaide water in seconds...

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Not disagreeing with you Stuart, just balancing evils. I lost a spawn of healthy 4 week old gold betta fry right after using dechlorinated tap water in a water change recently, so am pretty gun-shy about using Sydney water that isn't old, as in 'old' as opposed to chemically aged. I also lost a spawn of black CTs to a pH crash a few years ago (strangely, after a large water change using tap water - my pH was THREE!!), so I wouldn't want to risk that again, either. I wonder if I used ammolock at the time.... it's possible, as it's something I have on hand, but I'm not sure why I would have done that.

before I kept bettas I did a 30% water change weekly on Africans and big South Americans to try and keep nitrates under control, with no ill effects. Weaning myself off big weekly water changes using treated tap water wasn't easy, after years of that habit. But that was before the drought set in, and colloquial evidence is that the chemistry of the local water supply in Sydney has changed since the beginning of the drought.

I wasn't suggesting that Tuataress shouldn't do water changes to get rid of the ammonia - that is what I also would have suggested, but it had been suggested already. I didn't intend to seem argumentative - but it occurred to me that ammolock, if on hand, was another (short term) option (not a better option than water changes and getting the bacteria back in there - especially if the ammonia spike was because bacteria died off because of the copper, which you'd want to get rid of).

Sensibly, I just re-read the first post properly and noticed that ammolock had already been added - but at least in my haste I have learned something :sad:

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well the ammonia is coming down. This morning the reading was 1 but the nitrite is 2 and the nitrate is 5.

I have taken 2 sponge filters from the bettas tanks and put them in the tank. Hopefully the bio cycle will kick in.

One of my congo tetras become very bloated and died over night in the hospital tank - I don't think she was pregnant she was wobbling all over the main tank last night so I took her out just incase. She had a very pink belly, Imy concern was Fish tb.

Thanks all and Stuart and Lilli you guys are great!

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Ohh interesting! Sounds like a puzzler for the lab!

Tuataress, you won't know if you have ammonia or ammonium using standard test kits. As far as I understand it, in each dose of ammolock, there is a finite number of 'lockers' available. Once they have locked up the corresponding amount of ammonia, that is that. Any more ammonia that is produced stays as ammonia and doesn't convert to ammonium. The standard test kits measure both free and locked ammonia, so you are getting a total ammonia reading. Short of buying the ritzy test kits that will only measure ammonia, you have to judge by your previous ammonia readings, nitrite and nitrate readings, the smell of the tank, and the behaviour of the fish.

Write your readings down. At some point, you'll get a nitrite spike, and it'll most likely be at the point where the ammolock has been used up and the bacteria are able to easily get at the new ammonia. That is why you need to be ready. Get your water change water ready (at that point I'd use standard dechlorinator) and try to have some plants in place. With the ammolock, all you are doing is buying time for the bacteria to get a foothold, and to get some other measures in place to make it easy on the fish. Useful, but not a final solution. :sad: More than likely your bacterial seeding will make that nitrite spike very small, and you'll just keep putting along and the cycle will stabilise very quickly. Sounds like you have done a brilliant job with seeding!

Because of the ammolock, you may show ammonia readings for a bit longer than normal, as the ammonium will take longer to be processed. The readings should be constant or falling, NEVER rising. This is why you write it down :) If they rise, you have more ammonia being produced and not being processed, and you need to add more bacterial booster or hornwort etc. At some point your bacterial levels will increase to the point where they'll munch up the locked ammonia too, and then you'll get back to standard readings :)

This should really only be a mini-cycle (you have nitrite and nitrate readings, most likely you have small numbers of the relevant bacteria in place), so you aren't starting from scratch, The bacteria just need a hand to get breeding and working again :)

I've never had Ammolock or ammonia locking products crash pH, but I suppose that in most cases I was using them in tanks that were either getting the large water changes on a regular basis, or in tanks that were relatively well designed for stability but were slightly overstocked or stocked too rapidly. All were set up with decent substrate for the bacteria to take hold.

Most times when people use it, it is for emergency setups (hospital, babysitting, unexpected purchases etc). In those situations, I think it serves a good purpose, but it cannot ever ever ever be the be all and end all, and it must always be understood that it is only a stopgap measure. Even if you use it as the sole dechlorinator and add it with every water change to the point where you convert a majority of the ammonia, if not all, into ammonium, the tank still cycles. It just takes 6-8 months to do what would ordinarily happen in 4-6 weeks.

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Ammolock will still show the ammonia readings in kits. It just binds it so it is non toxic to fish. You will still get your Nitrite spike, so keep an eye out for that.

pH crashes when it is not buffering properly. You need good KH levels to stop the pH drifting. Not forgetting that over time pH naturally drops. Once the KH is zero, pH simply can not be stable. But that is one of the main causes of pH instability.

P.S Keep in mind when transferring filters over the bacteria can die if there is a significant difference in pH. Good luck Tuataress.

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Thanks again for all the advice. This morning the ammonia is down to .25 (breathes a small sigh of relief) but the nitrite is 1 and the nitrate is between 10 and 5 more towards 5. I'll do another 30% water change this morning. (no wonder I feel I did a full days work by lunchtime yesterday!!)

Now about the nitrite spike - what percentage of water change should I do?

Another congo tetra died yesterday - again bright red inside his abdomen and a little bloated. Is this anything to do with the levels talked of? I am really worried about fish TB it has the signs?

well off to do my change (whistles as she works)

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Congo's are inherently a fairly delicate fish, more recommended for matured, stable tanks - my suspicion would be it's the nitrites and ammonia killing them off - with fish TB, there is a fairly large range of symptoms, a lot of which can be other diseases, but the main thing is that while you may see any of the following:

loss of appetite

fish remains in seclusion and out of site

rapid breathing (respiration)

eyes appear to be cloudy or "popping out"

fish lies on its side near bottom of aquarium

stomach of fish appears to be sunken

whittish blotches on exterior

degraded and frayed fins

The fish can, and often does, live for weeks with the symptoms as the cause gets worse and worse... an 'overnight' death of an otherwise healthy fish is usually more down to something straightforward, and ammonia poisoning is a good start - if the gills are burnt by the ammonia, the fish can struggle on for a while, then expire...

P.S. There's a really clear, concise page on Fish TB at: http://www.4qd.org/Aqua/disease/tb.html

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IMO it would be unlikely that it is fish TB. As much as everyone talks about it, I've never heard of any confirmed cases. Most times it is just something else giving similar signs. ^^ what he said :thumbs:

What type of red was it? The way nitrite works I would imagine it would have a similar effect to carbon monoxide in mammals, changing things from pleasantly pink to very red.

Minor bloating can just be down to time in the water if you didn't find him straight away.

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The congo tetra was very red between the tail and abdomen. It was under the skin, it looked like blood veins exploded. Both the deaths were female fish, there is one female left in the tank and 3 males, they looked healthy this morning when I left for work. The first thad died was bloated and wobbling all over the tank before I put her in the hospital tank.

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It took me some time, but I finally found the table of pH versus ammonia concentration. The table gives the percentage of non-ionised NH3, that is, the toxic form at specific pH values and 25 degrees. Note the rapidly increasing value above pH6.5

pH | %NH3

6.0 | 0.05

6.5 | 0.17

7.0 | 0.51

7.5 | 1.7

8.0 | 5.1

8.5 | 14

9.0 | 35

9.5 | 63

10 | 84

Most freshwater fish expel waste ammonia in combination with CO2 in the boundary layer of their gills. Rift Lake cichlids have evolved a special mechanism because of the raised pH of their natural water. Marine species excrete urea.

Keith

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thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you all!!!

The readings are almost at the acceptable readings!!

It is only nitrate that is showing a very small reading!

Well and Nitrite - it is at .25

So thank you everyone!!

that is some impressive table too Keith - thanks for posting it

Might I add how much more helpful all you people are compared to the fish police on fishforum.net!!

My fish are mightily appreciative to - they are all waving their thanks!!

I'll be keeping a close eye on the levels for a while yet - I guess

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