Copper v copper gold

[Chuckie]

Can anyone give me an explanation of the difference between CG and copper? My way of processing it is, * copper is purple based (and often appears with black) * copper gold looks more like a green, without the red base (and often appears with white). Anyone got a better description?

[splendidbetta]

Copper gold is more green-based, but this seems to differ among individuals and some have both a gold-purple base and a green-base. The male in my sig is the latter. Joep has done a lot of work with coppers and metallics...maybe I could drop him a line?

[Joepmaster]

Hi all, I personally find it difficult to describe a difference between copper and copper/gold. The fish I'm working with are copper/golds and cctually most of the fish I see today are usually copper/golds. But too answer this question we actually should now, what is the gold color? We now now for instance that metallic and mask are caused by different genes. Is this also the case with the gold gene? Is this something different from the metallic gene or is the gold shade just a variation caused by the metallic gene? Another important issue to consider is the way of picture taking. They way of lightning and using flash sometimes can make your copper/gold fish more purple and other times more green. I also notice that the copper fish have become really clean in comparison with for instance 2 years ago. Many of them at that time had much underlying red. Many greetings from the Netherlands, Joep

[edie]

I've got the luxury of comparing copper and copper golds, so I know the difference quite noticeable. Long finned copper is difficult to find, usually you'll find it with black lace or copper black type. That's copper colour. Short fin copper is a beauty, if you can get your hands on it. Give me a buzz if you find one, I sure would like to have a pair Copper gold has the gold sheen when viewed from MOST angle. Sometimes you'd see it as purple or greenish, but when the fish turns around, u'd see the gold sheen, that's copper gold. Green Copper (or more like copper gold that loses its gold sheen, hence green colour left) is more common seen these days too. They are just the selective breeding of copper gold and removing the "red" base, hence removing the gold sheen. They are clean in body most of the time, but aint as exciting as the copper gold LOL Wait till you compare platinum and copper, specially when they have been mixed with other colour, you'd love the combo HTH

[Callatya]

OK, so then whats the difference between platinum and gold? I noticed on another board someone corrected a member on the colour of your fish, stating they were not gold, but platinum. Now i've seen your fish, and most definately do look gold (although in the photos the male looked more silvery and the female just looked yellow, but we all know what photos can do to colour) but what is the difference between platinum and gold? Is it possible all we are seeing is the same metallic overlay on different base colours? I'm tempted to say no, as you can have monster gold and monster silver colours, both on the same red coloured fish, however ruling anything out seems silly. I have 3 colours of copper in my tanks, *standard purple/copper - What is commonly called copper gold, but they shine purple and occasionally copper, rarely if ever gold *green/copper - which is quite similar, but a little more silvery and with a royal green hue *what looks like tarnished silver with a coppery hue, I have no idea what to call that one! I've almost given up keeping the silly things separate now. There seems to be little point if nobody can give a clear answer on what is what. IBC just has then under "metallic" without even any basic guidelines as so what colours should look like, so its a bit of a free-for-all atm, even with show breeders who are usually fastidious about keeping things separate etc. Finding a matching fish for anything other than the purple/copper is one hell of a challenge when you cannot say "I'd like a copper/green" and actually get the exact colour you are thinking of as nobody has the faintest clue what anyone else is using the name for. In all likelyhood you'd end up with metallic turqouise :)

[NICK1960]

Genetically, I think the difference between gold and platinum is that platinum has the addition of the Opaque gene. Both gold and platinum would have the genotype: C: Cambodian: gets rid of dark body pigment Nr: Non Red bl: Steel Blue Si: Spread Iridescence The difference between the two types (Gold and Platinum) is the presence of: Op: Opaque (probably in single factor form, pastel phenotype) NB: Copper fish are Steel Blue Fish with the addition of the metallic gene. In terms of breeding out metallic, basically there are two genes involved: Metallic and Mask. Both genes are partial dominants and need to be present in a double dose to get the full effect, i.e. Full Mask Copper for example. In their heterozygous forms, you get phenotypes like Partial Mask and Metallic Blue. Because you can "see" phenotypically when the genes are present in their heterozygous forms, I can't see why, at least theoretically, it would be difficult to breed these characteristics out and regain your classic colours. Nick

[Chuckie]

Thank god for Nick! Can you explain though why you say that steel blue is a base colour of copper? In the "purple coppers" it seems to be red, and in the copper golds it seems to be ... hmm I have no idea what it seems to be. Also why is it necessarily a steel blue fish and not turquoise/royal blue fish with metallic overlay? I'm not doubting what you say at all, I am just very interested in understanding how this colour/characteristic works better. Please excuse all the questions. I did a redg-old HM x opaque HM spawn once and got almost all platinums, which makes sense now that you have explained that opaque is a component in platinum. Is opaque a domninant or recessive characteristic? Or is it partially dominant?

[edie]

WOW...thank god I flunk my biology! In either case, there are lots of variations of copper/gold these days due to inbreeding and removal of certain colours resulting in copper green etc. Masking and metallics AFAIK are very hard to remove, at least in my tanks LOL. They can be "reduced" but not removed, unless you are so keen on due diligence inbreeding :)

[NICK1960]

Thank god for Nick!

Can you explain though why you say that steel blue is a base colour of copper?  In the "purple coppers" it seems to be red, and in the copper golds it seems to be ... hmm I have no idea what it seems to be. 

Also why is it necessarily a steel blue fish and not turquoise/royal blue fish with metallic overlay? 

I'm not doubting what you say at all, I am just very interested in understanding how this colour/characteristic works better. Please excuse all the questions.

I did a redg-old HM x opaque HM spawn once and got almost all platinums, which makes sense now that you have explained that opaque is a component in platinum.  Is opaque a domninant or recessive characteristic?  Or is it partially dominant?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Lilli,

Firstly, I know a "bit" about the genetics involved, but don’t claim to be an expert.

If you are interested you can go and read a thread I started on bettas4all called Metallic Genetics. I hope its OK to mention "another forum" if it isn’t I am truly sorry and please pardon my ignorance. Here is the link:

http://www.bettas4all.nl/viewtopic.php?t=2391

From what I have read, the common understanding seems to be that Steel Blue is the base colour for phenotypes called Copper. When you get copper on Turquoise or Royal Blue the phenotypes are referred to as metallic green and metallic teal respectively. The confusion for me is that phenotypes with some metallic are called metallic and with a lot of metallic are referred to as copper. The metallic gene seems to be a partial dominant. So copper crossed with say blue gives you "metallic blue". Cross the F1 offspring together and you get some coppers reappearing. Cross the F1 back to the copper parent and you should theoretically get a greater proportion of copper reappearing.

This would indicate to me that you need a "double dose" (homozygous genotype) of the metallic gene to get the highly metallic phenotype referred to as copper.

What you call the phenotype which is a copper based on say Turquoise or Royal Blue.......I’m not sure. I think I saw photos of Joep's fish where he refers to them as Copper Green and Copper Royal Blue. I've read and reread the literature on the subject but can't get a "definite" answer.

Sometimes experts are quoted, people like Dr Leo Buss who provide interesting info based on microscopic examination of the fish. My interpretation of the Buss quote provided in the Metallic Genetics thread in the "other forum" is that the copper phenotypes have more of the metallic irridocytes than do the metallic phenotypes. Additionally, I believe this supports my hypothesis that the fish with "more" of the metallic irridocytes are homozygous for the metallic gene.

I have not seem any discussion thus far as to what the genotypic differences between the more purple vs green coppers are.

My feeling is that some systematic experimental breeding needs to be done to "uncover" the genotypes under these variations in phenotype. I for one would really like to know what a copper phenotype based on Turquoise or Royal Blue really looks like. I know that is what happens in bird breeding and there is high quality literature available.

Additionally, I would like to know what the genotypic differences between copper and copper gold (if any) is. I'm not even sure whether there is a difference. Although I do wonder whether the difference between copper and coppergold relates to what Eddie said. Maybe a coppergold differs from copper in being genetically non-black. I don’t mean Cambodian, because that would produce the gold/platinum types.

Let me explain what I mean when I say "I'm not sure whether there really is a difference" between Copper and Coppergold. When it comes to naming phenotypes in Bettas, there is a lack of consistency and inter-rater agreement between individuals as to what constitutes a particular colour. So for example, if you placed a Copper fish in front of 20 Betta enthusiasts, would we all come up with the same "name" for the phenotype. I suspect there would be disagreement over whether it was copper, copper/gold etc.

Anyway, my thinking out loud has come to a halt for the moment.

Nick