Really worried now ... Water

[BettaBetta]

I'm no chemist, but I thought I had my 4 tanks (ranging from 8L to 26L) all cycled nicely over the last few weeks.

Used an API liquid test kit & was getting readings of Ammonia 0, 0 Nitrite & Nitrate ranging between 5 to 10. I just did my daily testing & readings are Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0. Gaargh, what's happened? Aren't cycled tanks supposed to have at least SOME Nitrate???

2 days ago I added a few Seachem Matrix pebbles to all filters (each tank has always had x 2 filters), nothing else has been changed or added except aged water during 10% water changes. One tank has had Waterlife Myzazin to treat finrot but they say that doesn't effect filter and all readings for all tanks are identical.

Should I be worried about not having any Nitrate at all? I've searched google but all I have been able to find in my panic (with impending fish delivery taking place this Thursday) is how to lower nitrate.

Surely this scenario now means they've somehow managed to uncycle?

Any observations or advice greatly appreciated.

[BettaBetta]

Well, who's an idiot with egg all over her face?!?! I read on the Seachem Matrix pebble label (minus my spectacles) that it removed ammonia & nitrite so I thought, "Fantastic, I'll add some of that to filters that are too small to carry Seachem Purigen".

Well, I'll be darned ... on a second look, wearing glasses this time, if the stuff doesn't remove Nitrate as well!!!! I knew Seachem were brilliant products but never thought for a moment they'd be that quick & totally effective.

From their website:

These macropores are ideally sized for the support of nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria. This allows Matrix™, unlike other forms of biomedia, to remove nitrate along with ammonia and nitrite, simultaneously and in the same filter.

Problem solved, it would seem all tanks are still safely cycled afterall. Be still my heart, be still!

[kandeecane]

Omg. I am getting some of this stuff! O_O;

I was reccommended Eheim's one... But this sounds great! I <3 Seachem

AND Stability seemed to work for me once... But I was cycling with only one fish... :/

[BettaBetta]

Kandee, see also the thread about Purigen - FishBites came up with a brilliant way to keep Purigen in smaller filters.

I've found with the Matrix though, it doesn't need to go in bags so just throw pebbles in below the sponges, it NEVER needs to be replaced or thrown away, no re-charging with bleach hassles and, best of all, the water is crystal clear and devoid of ALL chemicals, yeehaa, healthy kidlets.

Seriously, in my tiny Elite internal filters I only put in around 6-10 small stones & 0's was the result on all tests, even on the tanks that previously had .25 Ammonia & Nitrate 10. One small $12 bottle did ALL my filters (x 8 including 3 large'ish' hang-ons) and I've still got some left over!

I'm lovin' the peace of mind, but will still always test water ... it's a habit I don't believe I'll ever be able to break after doing it twice a day for the last month :yes:

[Rod]

I prefer to keep bettas in soft acid water

soft= at least 50% rainwater

acid= ketapang leaf

Water change 30% once a week and I use a product someone sells to neutrify tap water....it contains some tea tree oil

plenty of plants.....duckweed ,java moss ,java fern ,anubias ,guppy grass

and one lucky bamboo per tank

No filtration....they don't need it

In acid water ammonia becomes the far less toxic ammonium....making cycling less important

This may not work in a heavily stocked grow out tank.....but perfect for breeding pairs

IMO.....Reliance on chemical filtration just provides another item to be maintained as it is soon exhausted.....much easier (and much much better) to do a water change

A lot of information on filtration is targeted at Rift Lake cichlids......generally kept in high stocking situations in hard alkaline water where ammonia is very toxic and plants are quickly eaten

[BettaBetta]

Cheers Rod, all very good advice and I will certainly heed it fully with my one & only boy who will be living in a large cube - I can't get rainwater, shall I use bottled spring water instead? Rod, what size cubes are yours living in please (just wondering for the 30% change or whether I'll need to do larger volume changes - my cube is 3 litres).

All my other boys are happy little vegemites in community tanks, hence the need for filtration etc.

Oopsie, I just found out, it's was NOT the Matrix which depleted the Nitrate in all 5 tanks ... apparently they take a couple of weeks to establish & kick some serious butt. Hence I'm still at a loss to understand what the heck is going on so am back to water monitoring like a bleedin' hawk, sigh. Wishes someone could tell me if having 0 nitrate is a bad or dangerous thing because I can't get an answer anywhere. Now back to being worried that they all somehow uncycled.

[Rod]

Be careful with bottled spring water....

Spring water can be very hard.....I have used Pure water from supermarket on occasions

Check the chemistry on side of the box....needs to be 0 everything....no dissolved solids

I keep mind in small tanks.....300mmx180mmx 200mm deep= about 2/3 full 8 or 9 litres

I have 0 nitrate in some tanks....but these tanks have 2 fish in 9 litres and are heavily planted

My understanding is matrix is a substrate for bacteria to colonise.....I very much doubt it would have any anaerobic bacteria needed to process nitrate

in any normal filtration situation

Perhaps they are uncycled....look for a slight increase in ammonia

[BettaBetta]

Cheers again Rod - I must admit I was suspect when reading the lists on the sides of those bottles/boxes. Looks like I'll just have to continue using aged tap water.

Ah, yours are big - so, in a 3L cube, what would you recommend for w/changes, 100% daily?

This is on the Seachem Matrix site:

These macropores are ideally sized for the support of nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria. This allows Matrix™, unlike other forms of biomedia, to remove nitrate along with ammonia and nitrite, simultaneously and in the same filter. But I've been told it takes a couple of weeks to build up & kick in.

[Rod]

I wouldn't recommend 100% water change......and certainly not daily....perhaps 30% every other day if no plants

with plants(lucky bamboo) once a week would work

Products such as matrix are best used in marine applications where nitrate is poisonous.....Its' removal in this application is highly desirable. So....because water changes are so expensive these products have been developed and are more economically viable

if used....it is generally best placed in a refugium with 100mm depth of material with water passing over the top so the anaerobic bacteria can colonise the deeper areas of substrate

I know they say the core of these particles is where it anaerobic activity occurs...because all the oxygen is used by the aerobic bacteria on or just under the surface....and perhaps it does.

You will also see that quite a slow water flow is needed for this product to perform it's job.....a point often missed by those who propose a turn over of ten times an hour

Unfortunately lots of information relevant to keeping some particular species of fish is misinterpreted as being required or applicable to all species.....the industry often does not clarify this,or it does and doesn't get read or understood.....and misinformation is propogated via forums.

With freshwater fish.....nitrate is NOT that toxic.....unlike nitrite and ammonia

Removal of nitrate is best done by water changes as a lot of other organic waste is also removed in this process and freshwater is a lot cheaper than salt water

IMO.....you don't need fancy filter media for freshwater fish....just need to know the truth and practise regular maintenance (water changes)

I'd imagine Matrix will not remove nitrate until colonies of bacteria necessary for removal of ammonia then nitrate have established(to use all the oxygen).....and this takes at least 5 weeks

[BettaBetta]

Cheers yet again Rod.

Yep I figured nitrate at around 20 was perfectly fine & dandy, but the fact it's all gone virtually overnight, has me concerned. Based on your info, therefore, I can discount the Matrix having ripped it out in a mere 48 hours, especially with my not at all slow flow.

So, I'm left to presume that they've somehow all uncycled, and I'll therefore I'll be watching like a hawk for ammonia & nitrite on the march. Salad bowls, glass jugs etc at the ready to pop fish into should my worst fears materialise.

Where do you get your lucky bamboo from incidentally? I haven't noticed it at someone's & the last time I saw it was in Ikea many moons ago & km's away. Will grab some more Java Moss when next at someone's as well.

Cheers Di

[Rod]

Lucky bamboo is available in nearly all garden centers.....place stem and roots in water and leaves out of the water

mine grows everywhere....just cut the stem and stick in water and it will develop a new root system.

I assume you realise to cycle a tank you need a source of ammonia....ie fish waste or pure ammonia??

Did you ever get any reading for ammonia/nitrite in the cycle process?

[BettaBetta]

Ah you're a gem Rod! Haha have lived here for 12 years & only know Hawkins Garden Centre ... I may give Bunnings a call & see if they have it in their garden section, I love the stuff and can do with all the luck I can get these days.

Yep, the wee tank that's mid cycle (being only 8 litres it's being a right royal pain in the butt) is now giving readings of ammonia .25, nitrite 1 & nitrate 20. Because it has no fish in it, I took my revenge out on it & threw everything I had at it. It wasn't budging off the only reading being 0.25 ammonia. Threw in fish food, an ammonia source (do not ask), stability and it went ballistic, so have been doing some fairly dramatic water changes to bring levels back down to realistic. At one stage it got to Ammonia 8, Nitrite 1 and Nitrate 80! (Hence I KNOW my API liquid test kit manufactured in '09 is working). I suspect it'll be a wee while until my new precious boy goes in there lol.

In the meantime I'm after buying a small CYCLED 1' to 18" that will become a shrimp display tank after the above beastie has settled & the Betta can be housed in it.