dwpkr Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Hey all decided a while ago that i wanted to have a little fishbowl in my room, and after seeing the Bettas in some pet stores decided a Betta would be perfect! I did some research and ditched my initial idea of having a tiny little bowl with no filtration or heater and instead purchased a small filtered biorb bowl (i think only 15L) and also installed a 50W heater. i've had a quick read through the library and also read a bunch of stuff on the net about cycling the tank and what not but just wanted to ask some (probably already answered ) questions. Firstly, i filled the tank up with tap water and added in the stuff that makes the tap water good and left it running for 24 hours. then i put in something else that came with it, i think it was to kick start the good bacteria growth in the ceramic media. I left that for another 24 hours. I also put in a 50W heater It says not to use small stones or anything because it may impact on the effectiveness of the ceramic media. However, they sell 'fengshui pebbles' for the bowl, which as far as i can tell are just much larger sized pebbles. So i purchased some large pond pebbles that were labelled as "aquarium safe" from a pet and plant store, rinsed them thoroughly and loosely layered them on top of the ceramic media. Does this sound OK? I ask because afterwards the water went slightly cloudly, although it appears to have cleared up in the 2 days since. I also purchased some silk plants from the pet store, and some live plants which didn't appear to be rooted plants, they were merely 'rubber banded' onto large pebbles. So I attached these plants to some of my black pond pebbles with the rubber band and placed them in. Are rubber bands OK, I was thinking about using fishing line instead? I think I will also add some java fern and hopefully a moss ball as I have read good things. I put the plants infront of the heater to keep it hidden from view, but now I'm concerned that perhaps the heated water isn't circulating around enough/the heater is switching off too soon cause immediately around it gets hot while the rest of the bowl stays cooler? I ask this because the thermometer says its ~25 degrees celcius even though the heater has been adjusted to ~ 28 degrees. SO, i believed all was well and I could look at moving in a Betta. However i did a pH test, and the result was really high... I think the test went up to 7.8 or something, and the water was even darker than the 7.8 colour haha. I added some stuff to reduce it, but it's still currently at around 7.6 or so. The water also smells faintly bad... How do I reduce the pH? Can I move in a fish with the water at this level? (I understand that moving in a fish may infact speed up the good bacteria growth??) Water changes will also help, and tomorrow is the due date for a water change. I plan on removing 20% of the water but then I'm confused as to how I treat the new water. I take some tap water, get it to the same temperature as the tank, and then do i have to purchase something to make the water ok? And does it give me instructions on how much to use for ~3L of water? If i wanted to glue a small ornament to one of the pebbles to stop it falling over, do i need to buy special glue and will a normal aquarium shop stock it?? Wowie, this has turned into an essay haha. Thanks for any replies, I just want Betta to have as nice a home as possible! Bonus question! 15L heated tank with some live plants, large pebbles and a Betta inside - what tank mates can i consider? I will have a small mystery snail in there and was wondering if a ghost shrimp is an ok partner if he has enough shelter? Or will he just get snapped up? If not a ghost shrimp what about a cory? Or is going to overstock the tank? Tytyty!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilchard Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 "It says not to use small stones or anything because it may impact on the effectiveness of the ceramic media." thats crap, dont believe everything you read. The pebbles/gravel will only help with biological filtration the more surface area you have in the tank the more benificial bacteria can grow. i wouldnt put stones in the filter if thats what it means. "what about a cory?" i think a single cory should be ok. "I also purchased some silk plants from the pet store, and some live plants which didn't appear to be rooted plants, they were merely 'rubber banded' onto large pebbles. So I attached these plants to some of my black pond pebbles with the rubber band and placed them in. Are rubber bands OK, I was thinking about using fishing line instead? I think I will also add some java fern and hopefully a moss ball as I have read good things" many plants that are sold at aquariums are bog plants and shouldnt be grown in fish tanks submersed, a practice i am extremely annoyed about. It depends on which plant you have, You will need atleast fleuro lighting to grow the plant. "the thermometer says its ~25 degrees celcius even though the heater has been adjusted to ~ 28 degrees." Not all thermos and or heaters are accurate. "However i did a pH test, and the result was really high... I think the test went up to 7.8 or something, and the water was even darker than the 7.8 colour haha. I added some stuff to reduce it, but it's still currently at around 7.6 or so." I just bred some crowntails in a ph the same in a comunity tank so dont stress too much. also some cheep ph test kits are not accurate. they also have a used by date... What is the ph of your straight tap water, also where do you live, other enthusiest may be able to give you better readings if they live in the same area. "If i wanted to glue a small ornament to one of the pebbles to stop it falling over, do i need to buy special glue and will a normal aquarium shop stock it??" use ONLY aquarium safe silicone eg. Selleys glass and aquarium sealant.( Blue tube $7 from bunnings) "Also if the water smells" redo it all and a water change of 30% once a week, dont feed him or her too much, eg. he needs to eat all you give him one pellet at a time, also you will need a gravel siphon. There are better people on here than me to answer your questions on bettas but that is my opinion on keeping fish for 15 years. Cheers Deano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marianne Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 A single cory?? They are schooling fish, and no, you can't keep any in a 15 litre bowl. I would only have the one betta in there, and possibly a mystery snail for eating algae if needed, but it's way too small to put anything else in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilchard Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 good call with the schooling, what else can be kept then, if water changes are kept up another fish shouldnt be a problem! it would have to be small though. I have kept single corys for several years on their own, not by choice but by natural selection, eg. they died. maybe a koolie loach?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghengis Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Anything smaller than the Betta is likely to be harrassed to the point of death. I understand that you might want a tank mate for your little fella, but it just can't happen... It's not about the water changes (although they should be kept up as a matter of utmost import), it's about housing something in a bowl where there is literally no place to hide... Sorry to burst the bubble. You are on the right track with everything else, though. Don't stress too hard about the pH, it's the ammonia that you need to be concerned with. For me personally, I would be doing small water changes every second or third day for the first three or four weeks and then, as pilchard says, go the 30% each week. Try to get as many live plants in there as you can, whilst still providing ample swimming space, they will help immensely in keeping your tank stable. Just my 2c. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckie Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 I'd get on top of keeping one betta successfully before worrying about tankmates. Can you post a picture of this set up? The best advice I can give about pH is : leave it alone. Never use pH up (its just bicarb) and never use pH down (its just some type of acid). Bettas don't need "perfect" pH, they need constant pH. As long as you acclimatise the betta slowly on arrival and your tap water is about the same pH 24 hours after it comes out of the tap you'll be ok. The second best advice I can give about pH is buy an ammonia test kit instead. And one for nitrIte. Don't worry about nitrAte for now. Third best advice re pH: add indian almond leaf/extract. Its more an art than a science - I'd just float an entire leaf in 15 litres. Um, I had something else to suggest... Oh! Water changes: slowly slowly add the new (dechlorinated) water and that will be fine. You can use an airline siphon. Saves you buggerising around trying to match pH levels from tap to tank. Alos try and let the tap water sit for 24 hours after you dechlorinate it. I use rain water personally, but I think I read you're in adelaide so your tap water hasn't got the unique qualities of sydney water, so yours should be ok, but do rest it before adding to the tank. PH can swing quite significantly in that 24 hours and best that you fish isn't in it when it does. Sure the nitrogen cycle will be faster once you add a fish - because the fish produces ammonia! Test for ammonia every day and change water when it gets to ANY detectable level. Also test for nitrIte. NitrIte is more poisonous than ammonia. Change water if there is any nitrIte even if there's no ammonia. Not 100%, just enough to dilute the ammonia/nitrite. You can add Stability (is that what its called? Mental block) to help establish bacteria needed for the cycle. Re plants you need true floating plants like java moss, java fern or hornwart AKA foxtail. Stem plants tend to come with the rubber band, and they're supposed to be planted. Think that's all I can suggest for now. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terribletegs Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Perfect tankmate for the betta would be a snail or two! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwpkr Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 wow thanks for all the quick replies guys i did another pH test today and the result was slightly lower - around 7.5. i did a quick test of water straight from the ta and it was only 7.3?? am i doing it wrong ? the pH test is a new AquaOne kit, so it's not past it's use by date or anything, maybe the results aren't spot on though. Also maybe i should leave the tap water out for 24 hours before i test it? Is it a little weird that the pH is higher than the tap water?? but it seems maybe the pH levels aren't too crucial, as long as they aren't swinging all over the place. Tomorrow I will purchase an ammonia test kit and see what the results are. I'll also purchase some water dechlorinater and start doing 30% water changes every 3 days for a couple of weeks, making sure to leave the tap water out for 24 hours before slowly adding it in. I'll also look into getting one of those airline siphons to make water changes easier. I'll also test for Nitrite, and hopefully receive a reading of zero I will try and purchase some java fern/moss and foxtail and add some more live plants in there. And then, after a couple of weeks i should be A OK to move in a betta and mystery snail right?? Also, I understand that Bettas don't enjoy too much current in the water, so I was thinking of adding a valve/siphon thing to the filter airline to slow down the speed of the air bubbles. Is this a good idea? "It's not about the water changes (although they should be kept up as a matter of utmost import), it's about housing something in a bowl where there is literally no place to hide... Sorry to burst the bubble." What if i were to create a lot of places to hide? I could use the selleys glass and aquarium sealant (ty pilchard) and make several 'caves' if you will for a ghost shrimp? And it's OK either way, my bubble won't be burst I understood when i bought the bowl that tank mates were unlikely. Main goal is just having a nice home for Betta Just thought if i could have a safe place for a ghost shrimp too it would be a cool addition but if not it's fine. Thanks again for the help :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghengis Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Could you post a pic or three of the setup? It would be good to see what exactly we are dealing with...I am also interested in seeing what the filtration system is, before thinking if your filter idea would work or not. Also, you will need to put your fish in the tank straight away, otherwise the nitrogen cycle won't be able to start. Fish waste and food is what causes your ammonia to be created. The idea of changing the water each few days is to keep a cap on the amount of ammonia produced, and to ensure your little mate does not become too stressed or sick during this period. You really do need for the ammonia to be there to help start the system and it will take at least three or four weeks before the system is stable. Your ammonia and nitrate test kits will help with indicating where in the cycle you are... Google something like "aquarium nitrogen cycle" for further info. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bettarazzi Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 If the pH from the tap is different to the tank then I'd be looking at the decorations that you've put in there as the most likely cause. I personally always put fish straight into the tank as soon as I set it up. You can use a filter bacteria product like Stablity or Cycle to get your tank going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilchard Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 you could also use house hold cloudy amonia to kick start the filter, iv used this in big tanks that were going to be heavily stocked, but thats an essay on how to use and moniter it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlc33 Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Hi, I'm going to add my 2c for what it's worth.... Regarding your pH problem, be very careful choosing your substrate. Some pebbles may look gorgeous and be recommended for aquariums, but beware that some contain marble chips. Please someone correct me if I am wrong here, marble is calcium carbonate - same thing as sea shells. Perfectly fine in a MARINE aquarium but not recommended for our betta buddies. They won't tell you that at the fish shop. I totally agree with razzi regarding the decorations in your tank. I had no end of trouble with one of my tanks, I pulled out every decoration. In the end it turned out to be my pretty pebbles that were causing the problem. Just some food for thought. I must say that it is wonderful that you are doing so much preparation before taking the plunge into betta keeping. Good job, Tracey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckie Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Like I think I said, there is often a pH swing within the 24 hours after water comes out of the tap. Hence why its a good idea to let it stand for 24 hours before adding it to the tank. It's normal for the tank water and tap water to differ. I actually use marble chips in my jars to help buffer the water and avoid pH swings - but only 1 or 2 per container (either that or shell grit). Here is how you test if your substrate is alkalinising the water: Take some out of the tank. Put some white vinegar in a glass. Drop in a couple of pebbles. If they fizz or bubble, they are not inert and will make your water harder and more alkaline. I also thought I should add, in case it's not obvious, you only use ammonia to do a FISHLESS cycle. Never add ammonia to a tank with fish already in it! There are articles about the nitrogen cycle here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwpkr Posted October 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 ok i tested a few of the pebbles in vinegar and definitely didn't fizz. there was like one or two tiny bubbles but think that mighta just been air bubbles or something? some pics if it helps! here's the bowl i bought: put in the ceramic media it came with and water and yada yada. then i bought the large black pebbles you can see here. also, i will confess, i impulse bought these plants so i'm not entirely sure they're suitable for this bowl in which case they shall be donated to another aquarium. The one with big leaves is a silk plant so that can stay, but i plan on adding the kava fern and java moss. this is a close up of the pebbles, this isn't going to impact on the effectiveness of the ceramic media? also the reason it says not to use smaller pebbles is because they can become lodge in the filter or something. and the lighting. is the lighting any good for plants? the filter runs quite fast aswell which is why i was considering buying a valve to slow it down? so if i put in some better plants, and the water is free from ammonia and nitrate i should move in fishy and snail?? thanks for all the help :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghengis Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 the filter runs quite fast aswell which is why i was considering buying a valve to slow it down? so if i put in some better plants, and the water is free from ammonia and nitrate i should move in fishy and snail?? thanks for all the help Yep, a flow valve in the airline to your filter will mean that you can adjust the flow rate. Don't slow it down too far, though, as this filter relies on those bubbles flowing thru to draw the water thru with them. As to the second Q....as said above, you won't have any ammonia in the tank UNTIL the fishy moves in...up to that point it is just a bowl of water. You can add all the bio-boosting liquids you like (Prime, Stress Zyme, whatever) but without an ammonia source to feed the ammonia killing bacteria, they just won't multiply. It's kinda difficult to explain, but basically, you need to put the fish in the water. The fish will create ammonia in the tank, by way of waste and/or uneaten food, etc. Bacteria that feed on ammonia will start to grow and consume the ammonia, turning it into nitrate. Bacteria that feed on nitrate will then start to grow and convert the nitrate to nitrite. Then bacteria that feed on nitrite will come along and consume the nitrite. The thing is, you need the chicken in order to get the egg... No fish in tank, no nitrogen cycle. As I said also, doing your regular small water changes for the first few weeks will help keep your fish happy and not expose him to too high ammonia levels. The test kits will help you to keep an eye on this. Pilchard mentioned using pure ammonia to help kick the system along. This is called a "fishless cycle" and involves you adding "X" amount of ammonia each day for a few weeks, until all the required bacteria have done all the required duties to make your tank into a biologically stable environment. Given that this seems to be your first (of one of your first) ever fish, don't worry about this technique too much. Just stick with the basics. Put the fish in, monitor your ammonia levels, keep the waterchanges up every second or third day and be patient. Also, that light should be OK for the plants you have chosen. I wouldn't try to get any more in there though, it looks a bit crowded already (that doesn't mean to take any out...just trim them regularly)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghengis Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 I should mention...I got the nitrate and nitrite parts about face... The nitrite stage goes first, followed by the nitrate stage. I hope that hasn't thrown you too much!! Have a read of this http://www.bestfish.com/breakin.html ...then, this http://www.bestfish.com/newtank3.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwpkr Posted October 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 thanks heaps for all the help ghengis :alright: some final Qs on the water changing... i bought some tap water conditioner, but it says to use 1mL for every 75L of tap water being treated. since this is a only a small bowl though 3 - 4L is all i'm replacing for a 20-30% water change. if i add 1 mL to such a small quantity of water is it going to have a negative impact? should i get a dropper or something and just add 2 or 3 drops to the tap water? and i understand that adding the new water all at once isn't the greatest, how slow should i be adding it in? if i use some thin tubing and have it running in slowly it'll take about 5-10 minutes for the 3-4L to all be added in. is this too fast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghengis Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Yeah, just get a length of airline or somesuch for your WCs. Actually, don't tell anyone, this is just between you and me, ok (and the three and a half thousand other people that look here, lol). I have a Cottees cordial bottle with the top cut off, that I use for WCs in small tanks, or for top offs in the 2ft. I just fill it with the required amount of water, add a dribble of conditioner and VERY SLOWLY pour it into the tank... I reckon your 1ml should be OK, without any dramas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwpkr Posted October 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 haha your secret is safe with me thanks for your help, really appreciate it. i would honour you by calling my fish ghengis but the fish name is already taken. as is the snail name. as is the prettiest rock haha. but i tell you what, when i get some java fern, i shall name it ghengis! either that or i will raise my 1ml of water conditioner before adding it to the tap water and shout "praise be to ghengis" every week when i do WC's. naming the plant is probably a little less weird... might go with that :alright: thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghengis Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Lol, that's OK... My first Betta was called Ghengis and when I signed up here, it just made sense to use that name. Unfortunately the little fella aint with us anymore :alright: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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