Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Chuckie

gold and platinum

Recommended Posts

So a copper fish is a steel fish with 2 copies of the metallic gene. I get that - but then what "colour" is a gold betta? And what colour is platinum? I am assuming that a platinum fish isn't blue at all, since it's light bodied. But I can't quite work out gold. It can't be as simple as a yellow metallic, can it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Platinum is a metallic opaque, I remember back when I was doing all my research on opaques and irrids I came across the platinums and they were said to be metallic opaques. as for gold I wouldn't have a clue. yellow metallic does sound right though seeing as I've never seen someone advertise a yellow metallic before. it's always been gold.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lisa, the metallics have peaked my interest and I need to figure out the same questions you did last year....

What's a gold genetically speaking?

It can't be copper...coz we've decided that's steel blue with x2 metallic modifiers (see blue genetics)

This article here suggests gold is selectively bred greens with metallic modifiers (or "green coppers")...but doesn't that make metallic green?????

Also if platinum is opaque with metallic modifiers... is it double dose (ie x2)???

And if so what happens if you cross a copper with a platinum/gold????

I'm not trying to hound you Lisa, but the metal betta bug has bitten.... I need answers from anybody!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Firstly, please don't assume that I am the font of all knowledge, genetic or otherwise. I am just a hobbyist with certain, limited spheres of interest (ie, I have little if any interest in the genetics of red, orange, or yellow, except to the extent that they relate to mustard gas, which I AM interested in!) so I only know (or think I know) about stuff that interests me. There are much more knowledgeable members here like Jodi, Stefan, Nick1960 and Joep when it comes to genetics. So you can hound me all you want, but you may as well hound someone who actually has the information you seek instead :yes:

I personally find the articles on Joep's site the most helpful about genetic questions:

http://bettaterritory.nl/BT-AABcolorgenetics.htm

http://bettaterritory.nl/BT-AABcoppergenetics.htm

http://bettaterritory.nl/BT-AABDragons.htm

Having said all that and returning to the point, the Betty Splendens article you linked to is very old now. It looks like Victoria was using "gold" to describe dark bodied metallic fish, and her photos are of "copper golds" (which today I would expect to just see referred to as "copper) whereas we are talking gold as phenotypically like Goldsmith, right?

Victoria's article specifically says that in 2003, "the IBC only recognizes the Solid Dark Bodied Copper Types for show purposes". I don't have time to check if that has changed, I am sure it has.

So assuming that the "gold" betta you're interested in is not a dark bodied fish, I would say that genotypically it is a fish that has at least the following genes:

* cambodian (light body)

* metallic (x2)

I would take a punt and guess that a platinum (as opposed to a gold) betta has cambodian + opaque (x2). Not to be confused with an "Opaque" phenotype which Joep explains as:

The genetic make up of a opaque white is represented by: C bl Si Nr Op [1].

C - The cambodian gene for lack of dark body pigment which causes the light body.

bl - Steel blue pigment which appears silvery-white when on a light background.

Si - The spread of the iridocyte pigment, in this case steel blue over the fish.

Nr - Non-red, causes the inability to produce red pigment.

Op - Opaque, the special gene that cause the powdery appearence of the fish

I would speculate that, for a GOLD fish (as distinct from a COPPER fish and an opaque fish) and in light of Joep's explanation as to the genes for an opaque fish, the genetics at work in a gold betta are:

C - The cambodian gene for lack of dark body pigment which causes the light body.

bl - Steel blue pigment which appears silvery-white when on a light background.

Si - The spread of the iridocyte pigment, in this case steel blue over the fish.

Nr - Non-red, causes the inability to produce red pigment.

+ + - Homozygous metallic

Would love someone to step in and explain how I got it wrong, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thankyou, "Oh Great Font of All Knowledge That Is Good and True (and some made up stuff)".......LMAO!!!!! :)

Your input is always appreciated and respected, Lisa.... but I did feel I was hounding you, so anyone who may help is also welcome to join in!

Next:

Fact: Platinum is opaque with metallic modifier

Question: Platinum (C, bl, Si, NR, Op, +) x platinum(C, bl, Si, NR, Op, +) gives......????

One would expect some golds in that cross if Lisa's presumption is correct (gold = opaque plus two metallic modifiers. C, bl, Si, NR, Op ++). Anyone know if this is true???

Edit...just realised I quoted you incorrectly Lisa, ??minus the opaque??... does that change outcomes??? Or... did you forget the Op??? :)

Edited by paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Lisa removed Op as it would make the fish white???

Cambodian is the body, Opaque would be the entire fish?

So with the golds that I've seen it looks like a cambodian yellow with metallic modifiers. Though I don't know anything about metallic modifiers...

So I'm guessing it's a + and not a ++ from what I understand ++ gives copper?

So technically it'd be a Cambodian Yellow Steel Metallic??? o_O *confused* No wonder they just call them golds.

I had another think and as there are like 4 different layers of colour... Yellow which is caused by the red loss gene, red, blue and iridescence?

Is there genes for each layer or do the genes tell you what layers exist? I hope I didn't make this all too complicated.

OR would it be a light bodied copper yellow???? :)

...Turns out I fished up some show standards. Gold is definitely accepted as a Metallic Light Bodied fish... Doesn't really help on determining genes but it's an interesting read.

http://www.bettaclub.org/BCS%208NBC%20PDF%20Classes.pdf

Also another good article for those of you who wish to understand the origin of and how metallics work.

http://www.bettaterritory.nl/BT-AABcoppergenetics.htm

Sorry the post is so long I'm just recording my thought process. xDD And dont' want to double-post.

But blue is actually an iridescent layer... Which can either be metallic homozygous (Double +) or non-metallic homozygous (Double of the non-metallic gene)... Or metallic heterozygous which is one of each...

There's 3 iridescent types... Royal Blue, Steel Blue and Turquoise. A turquoise betta with homozygous metallic is a Metallic Green. A steel blue betta with homozygous metallic is a Copper. And a royal blue betta with homozygous metallic is a Teal. (No picture I can find??)

Though I can't find a cambodian yellow betta picture anywhere so it's very possible they could be yellow dragons.. Which I googled and found images VERY similar to our "gold" bettas.

http://betta.ketviet.com/imgs/CrossBreeding/bild-13788.jpg

Edited by Kandee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting question Lisa... even got me thinking and I try to avoid the genetics complexities but I really do like the yellow/gold colouring....

Kandee - don't think red loss is part of the equation as it goes and can come back again... there's no known gene for the colour yellow - hence the term Non-Red....

Just thinking out loud here now....

White = steel blue fish with C Si Nr1/Nr2 Op

Copper = steel blue fish with Si ++

Yellow = red fish with Nr1

Pineapples = extended red fish with Nr1/Nr2

Gold = red fish with Nr1/Nr2 Si Op ++ ???

Would the Gold/Red fish we've seen sometimes that appear to be shiny have the same without the Op gene but the extra metalic like the coppers?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tried to distinguish gold from platinum and opaque. I believe gold bettas have the following genes:

C - The cambodian gene for lack of dark body pigment which causes the light body.

bl - Steel blue pigment which appears silvery-white when on a light background.

Si - The spread of the iridocyte pigment, in this case steel blue over the fish.

Nr - Non-red, causes the inability to produce red pigment.

+ + - Homozygous metallic

Not Op - opaque.

Kandee, all fish have a 'yellow' layer underneath all the other colour layers. have a look at Joep's article on colour genetics: http://bettaterritory.nl/BT-AABcolorgenetics.htm

I suspect the red golds are blue fish with red wash and ++ (2x metallic modifier making the blue look copper/gold)

There are pictures of Teal bettas somewhere on AAQ. *edit: Here they are!

http://ausaqua.net/forum/index.php?s=&...ost&p=31413

http://ausaqua.net/forum/index.php?s=&...ost&p=31419

http://ausaqua.net/forum/index.php?showtop...529&hl=teal

http://ausaqua.net/forum/index.php?showtop...073&hl=teal

http://ausaqua.net/forum/index.php?showtop...199&hl=teal

http://ausaqua.net/forum/index.php?showtop...969&hl=teal

http://ausaqua.net/forum/index.php?showtop...112&hl=teal

:) :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok second attempt to think about this....

White is C bl Si Nr (white fish)

Opaque is C bl Si Nr Op (white opaque fish)

Platinum are metallic opaques - C bl Si Nr Op + (metallic white fish)

Lisa's Gold is C bl Si Nr ++ (white fish with ++ ??)

Copper is bl ++ (steel with ++)

But.... (still thinking aloud here)

To get copper we started with steel (dark body) and the ++ turned it to copper. Will the ++ turn to gold when starting with a white fish?

Are golds really a metallic yellow as suggested by Paul?

Yellow is Nr (red fish with non-red gene)

So could the gold/yellows be:

Nr - non red - yellow fish with no red present

Si - spread iridescence - full covering of colour or masking

++ - to give a super metallic look

With the addition of Op the fish would have a dragon type look with the opaque scales being coloured by the yellow underneath?

This is doing my head in.... sounds logical till I read and rewrite it again and again....

Edited by fishbites

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On reflection, I think it is confusing to use yellow/Nr instead of Cambodian (light body). I don't think that non-red is necessarily a prerequisite of the gold phenotype. I say this because a fish can be genotypically both gold AND red (ie, red/gold and copper/red). So a red gold would be Cambodian (light bodied) with a steel blue layer, spread iridescence, and ++ making the steel look copper or gold, PLUS red finnage. If it happens to be non-red (Nr) then it would look pure gold.

It is also a bit confusing to use 'super metallic' if you're referring to ++, because a blue fish with one + (metallic) gene could be said to look like a 'super metallic' blue fish. Whereas the ++ genotype changes the appearance of the blue into another colour entirely.

Also spread iridescence is not associated with masking (think about the traditional blue bettas which had black/matte heads). It is the metallic gene that causes masking.

What do you mean by "a white fish"? Just a light bodied solid coloured fish with spread iridescence?

If I understand correctly, the fact that a fish has a steel layer does not necessarily mean it has a dark body. The steel blue (spread iridescence) layer can be on a dark bodied fish (copper) or a light bodied fish (platinum/gold).

So again, I reckon a gold betta is cambodian (light bodied) with a steel blue layer, spread iridescence, and ++ (2 x metallic modifier). If it is pure gold, it would also have Nr, or red loss.

I have had a satisfactory amount of red wine tonight so I apologise if any of that was critical, rude, disjointed or nonsensical.

Now - someone impress me by explaining how we get copper BLACKS!!! (I reckon it's a melano or black lace with 2x metallic modifier, making the steel layer look copper or gold).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Copper blacks...

yes on melano or black lace

yes on x2 metallic modifiers

probably blue layer blbl

and Si

All makes sense...

.... but check out this spawn by Joep...does any of that make sense? Confuses me when term "silver copper" is used, and also confusing coz he's added dragon to equation. (as far as I understood dragon = copper with an added extra that produces thicker appearance to scales as the fish matures).

Separate note... could there be more than one type of metallic modifier... ie copper =steel++, but can one or both of the "+'s" be a slightly different metallic modifier? Reason I ask is that this spawm by Joep should theoretically create ONLY metallic steel blue and metallic royal blue (assuming sire blbl++, dame Blblnmnm) but the last girl pictured doesn't "fit" - almost looks like a teal (Blbl++), but no metallic modifier from dame makes this impossible. Could the sire have a "different kind" of metallic modifier that makes him an unusual copper colour (ie silver) and hence this then makes his daughter look like a "different than usual" metallic??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL... have another few Lisa eat-drink-smiley-5152.gif

You weren't rude, critical, nonsensical or any other word at all!

I see two types of fish really in this discussion... one that is solid yellow which we call gold and the other that has different coloured fins to the main body colour as in the copper/black copper/gold/red.... I've been thinking of them as two completely different gene sets.... what I've been obsessing with is the pure solid yellow/gold colours...

++ means that the fish has a metallic gene from each of the parents (in my mind that is) ... by a white fish I thinking of one that is phenotypically white ...

Forget all that though... I've just been rereading one of Joep's articles and have been thinking about this bit -

"Crosses between opaque and copper for instance led to the development of the platinum whites and by now we have a huge range of metallic variations available like copper red, black coppers, yellow/golds, etc."

Thinking in terms of gene pairs rather than single alleles per fish and started playing round with punnet squares....

Opaques = Cc (Cambodian genotype) blbl (steel blue) NRnr (non-red genotype) plus SiSi (spread iridescence) and OpOp (opaque gene)

Copper = blbl (steel blue) ++ (super metallic gene)

If a copper is crossed with opaque it gives off some highly metallic fish but not all share the nrnr (yellow) or the ++ (super metallic) genes but a percentage do - once these are crossed back you start getting fish like this: cc (full cambodian) blbl (steel blue) nrnr (yellow) ++ (super metallic) plus SiSi (spread iridescence) and OpOp (opaque gene) Does that sound like it could be it for gold?

One of the other outcomes was Cc blbl SiSi nrNR OpOp ++ where there is only a Cambodian genotype therefore the fish would retain a dark body and the nrNR would mean no yellow but the fish could infact be a black lace or melano black which often have steel blue 'wash' combined with the ++ to give the copper colour of the fish. Not sure if this explains it enough to myself yet but would this go part the way to say that copper blacks are somewhere near here?

I think I need some of your wine after thinking about this too much...

Edited by fishbites

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just saw your comments Paul...

That last fish is definitely a different colour .... and you're right ... they should be steel blues ....

The grey is nice too... wonder if there is an element of blonde gene in there to wash out a black/steel base colour to give the silver instead of the copper finish to the sire?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well the blonde gene definitely washes out dark pigment to an extent which could do that I guess...

Considering in reds... The brightest reds are those with Extended Red and Blonde gene...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...