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fighter boy

Blood Red HM male vs Lavender BF HMPK male

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ok well this is the sequel to my first post with the Melano hmpk and the yellow hm..

here we have two more fish from Ninoid12 (Nina). she has put much time and effort into the hobby and i wish her well in the upcoming spawns..

the first fish is a (i think) Blood red HM male. first off let me know what you think. Is he blood red or am i missing something.. he is a fair bit darker in the flesh than what is seen in the picture. i at first thought he had a bit of copper in him but i dont think he does anymore.. some one confirm it for me please..

also do to there being soo many pictures i have opted to await comments from y'all on the first fish then i was going to add more pictures of the second fish which as you know is what i think is a lavender BF (buttefly) HMPK male..

here goes.: one: Blood Red HM male

PHTO0258.jpg

big dorsal... poor thing.

PHTO0260.jpg

PHTO0267.jpg

let me know what you all think and experienced hobbyiests (sp) if you could all leave a comment and a critique in what needs to be improved.. as im looing to line breed this guy and all other fish shown in the critique sections...

kindest regards,

rob

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Sorry Rob, many of us have very limited time. A proper critique takes a lot of cross referencing with IBC standards and is very time consuming. I try and critique fish when I can, as I am sure others do, but we all have other priorities and regrettably at times they come to the fore.

Does Nina feel ok with you asking for a critique of the fish she bred?

Immediate impressions based on the IBC 'least fault' approach (ie it forces us to pick on whatever we see is 'wrong' with the fish):

* Is the dorsal always folded over like that?

* The anal fin should line up with the caudal - it's too long.

* Blue iridesence is a fault in a red fish.

* there is no shot of him in full flare so a proper critique isn't possible.

That's blue irid, not copper BTW.

I am a little unsure where to start with your question "is he a blood red HM". By reference to what? What do YOU think "blood red" means? It's not an official colour descriptor so it's purely a matter of opinion. And no, to me he doesn't look what I would call "blood red" but that's not an opinion proffered by reference to anything expect my knowledge of what blood looks like. I am sure there are summaries pinned in this forum of the IBC colour standards... maybe not (tired). But it may help you get a more helpful response if you try and work out what colour you think he is genetically, and then re-phrase the question. Any red fish can be 'blood red' if you want to call it that, but as everyone has a different idea of what 'blood red' is, there's no definitive answer.

Ok - zzzzz. Back after sleep.

Hopefully some night owl whose alarm doesn't go off at 5.30am may put in their 2c worth.

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i havent got any permission off of Nina in regards to him being critiqued as i thought of it more as my own personal research as to whether he would be worth breeding and with what. this is strictly for my own personal studies and if i have offended anyone then i would like them to know that it was in no way malicious or with the intent to cause such an outcome.

i would like to use this guy to start my own red hm line. im glad i have covered the copper or not question. but since he has an overly long anal fin how could i cross him without his fry sharing the same faults.?

i like the irrid blue myself though im not really breeding to follow ibc standards. this is for my own personal satisfaction. and granted we all have different opinions on what one would call pretty or easy on the eye.

also as for the blood red. in person i feel that he is much darker than shown in the picture. he has clear endgings on his fins but i think they add character. blood red to me is the exact or close colour to ones blood. yes depending on which area of the body this blood comes from depends on its overall appearance as blood from a small cut is much lighter in colour than say blood from a bleeding artery or head injury. so i guess it is very arguable as to what blood red may be considered.

i thought blood red was an actual colour thus my question of comparison. thank you for clearing that up lilli. i now know that blood red is in fact not a classified colour and shall remember this.

as for his dorsal. it does not always hang like that. its just my lack of proper photographing skills.. lol

the extended anal fin (by ibc standards) is a major fault right?

is there a link to the ibc standards guide where i could possibly cross reference some of my own fish.?

thanks again.

p.s. i understand the time issue we all have.. fitting my studies in with my fish is hard enough. and thats with out a full time job like you all have. much appreciated.

Edited by fighter boy

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There is an extract from The IBC standards here

The only thing you could do to try and eliminate the anal fin length issue is breed with a female who doesn't have it, but IME it's quite a dominant characteristic and you may not be able to breed it out for several generations.

I didn't mean to suggest that you'd need permission from Nina to get the fish critiqued. But as a proud 'parent' myself, I might not like to see anyone finding faults (which a critique usually effectively is) of my baby :lol:. I am sure she's a big girl and will be ok with it - but not all breeders may be and it's something to bear in mind.

I personally like blue iridesence on a fish too - but a lot of breeders have worked for a long time to try and minimise it in red bettas (for show purposes/to meet the international standards) so perpetuating/increasing it may be seen as a step in the wrong direction. But if you don't care about conforming with IBC standards for colour and people think blue irid on a red fish is pretty and they want to buy it, then go for it. It's all about what you want to achieve. I quite like the challenge of trying to breed to a standard - but then again, new things are appearing all the time in bettas (metallics, dragons etc) that we wouldn't have but for experimentation.

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ok thank you very much for that lilli. i shall read it a bit and refer back to it when needed.

i completly agree with you there though i cannot exactly recall whether she actually bred this fish as there were no others like him in sight and the conversation dialogue was 2hrs long.. hehe. i was "shopping". you know how it is.

so 'do you suggest i find another male and place this fella in my displays?

i dont think im overly worried on the extended anal fin as his dorsal is very large as well. poor bugger isnt as cruisy as my hmpk melano (due to the tail conditions of course)

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so 'do you suggest i find another male and place this fella in my displays?

Not if you want to breed him.

No fish is perfect :lol:. Well, my black orchid female may be, lol *loves*. But there's usually some thing you'd change (hence you breed them - to improve what you've got). The anal fin often outgrows the caudal as the fish get older so even if you bought one without that characteristic, you might end up with it a few months later! But here you know the fish has it. As you said, you're not overly concerned by that characteristic. It is a characteristic that bugs the daylights out of me. Irregular top-lines bug the daylights out of Stefan. I am sure iridesence on a supposedly matt fish bugs other people. You shouldn't make a decision based on MY personal preference. I am just a lowly betta hobbyist and my opinion is mine only.

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lol, no stressing, i dont mind. This fish was NOT bred by me (lucky, i might have cried with bad critique ;P lol). I purchased a few like this from one spawn but have decided not to breed him as ive changed my colour breeding ideas.

His body is blue, fins red, with black edging. I think he's beautiful even if not 'ideal'. I was told he was from a very large spawn, and i havent particularly exercised and water changed him to grow that tail.

anyhow, im not going to critique him, so hopefully others will give you ideas.

cheers,

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i might have cried with bad critique ;P
:confused: *relieved*

:anyone:

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lol. thats a relief. i have the intentions to cross him to my red female pk even if im likley to get a heap of uglies. experience is what i crave.. oh that and Ninas halfmoon red dragons lol..

thanx for the help lilli. i know that each individual has there own opinion and im glad for you to share your own with me. you are definatley a credit to the hobby. and as for your black orchid. gotta pic or 2?

im in love with black orchids and i must say that the orchid HM female i got off Nina with this red fellow is doing absolutley great and has darkened much more in colour.. im planning on crossing her with my black melano male hmpk. any ideas what i could expect in F1 and is there a likley hood of any other colour other than black in the spawn.

my knowledge on blacks is not all that great... is there a rule to what blacks of the three that orchids have or can they come in any form of black?

(im refering to the likes of melano and black lace by the way)

also how do i do punnet squares.? i never figured them out. once i have down pat i wont have to bombard you all with questions that i should already know.

thanks for the help.

p.s. also Nina. woudl you mind if i go the lavender BF hmpk male critiqued?

i wasnt sure if you bred him either...

Edited by fighter boy

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Hi Rob

All our breeders are in this thread. The copper girl has died.

Ah, black genetics. I think that deserves its own thread. Will post what my understanding of how it works elsewhere.

It's a bit hard to explain how to do punnet squares unless I can draw them. Stefan or razzi probably has done a post on them somewhere, try a forum search.

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