JP21 Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Hi I have bought my teenage daughters a tank 48 X 15 X18.. for Xmas. Should I get the eheim 2215 or 2217 for this size...By my calculations it is about 210 litres. Thanks Jen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghengis Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 The 2215 has an output (advertised) of 620L per hour. That would be only just enough for a 210L tank, but given that the ACTUAL output, with media, hoses etc attached, would be more like 400lph, it's nowhere near enough. The 2217 has 1000lph (advertised), so would be much better suited to your tank. The Eheims are the Rolls Royce of filters, you couldn't go wrong with one of those. Their reputation is reflected in the price, though. Have you considered any of the non-marquee brands? AquaOne? Jebo? Hydor? Some of these have priming, or self-priming, systems that can prove very helpful. They also come with attractive warrenties/guarentees and are not nearly as expensive, either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 I'd like to offer a different opinion for consideration........ You will find the Eheim2215 is rated for Aquariums up to 350 litres You will find their rating is not the pump....but what comes out a clean outlet. The Germans know their stuff, however they assume you will not overstock or overfeed your fish. There is a commonly held belief that the higher the turnover the better(I don't agree)....BUT the thing that is most likely to kill your fish is poor biological filtration and the slower the rate that water passes the bacteria the more efficient they are at their job.... You will not be sorry you invested in an Eheim....and the 2215 will do the job nicely. What do you plan to stock the tank with??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lpiasente Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 My brother has one that is 10 years old and he can still get parts. 2215 will set you back around $200 if you search hard enough. I can get 2217 for $240.00 new. I bough a cheap brand off ebay and it lasted 6 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghengis Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 You will find their rating is not the pump....but what comes out a clean outlet. Hmmm, not wanting to turn this into a he said/she said debate, I think you will find that most filter manufacturers will overrate their equipment. Also, based on what research I have been able to conduct, flow rates are based on a brand new, completely empty, filter. If a filter is rated at 600lph, that will be the amount of flow seen right at the outlet point, without filter media or hoses. A simple test would be to grab a stopwatch and calculate how long it takes a given filter to fill a bucket with or without media etc. Of course, to do this, one needs to actually have purchased the filter already (unless you have a spare lying around), which makes this experiment somewhat redundant... There is a commonly held belief that the higher the turnover the better....BUT the thing that is most likely to kill your fish is poor biological filtration and the slower the rate that water passes the bacteria the more efficient they are at their job.... This belief was commonly held (and one that I once subscribed to also), until recently. In fact, both sides of the argument are irrelevant. Aside from a filter that is massively oversized for a given tank and causes stress to the fish, or a filter that is so badly undersized that it is providing absolutely no current or filtration benifit, it really doesn't matter whether the water is flowing fast or slow through the filter... Either way, the same amount of water will pass over the same amount of bacteria over a given period. What is important, is sufficient circulation within the tank itself. This could easily branch off into an argument about suitable locations for the inlet/outlet of a canister (and become even more complicated), however... It is my opinion that having water flow the entire circumference of the tank is the best way to avoid deadspots and ensure proper circulation. Some people argue that the inlet in one corner and the outlet at the opposite corner is the way to go, but I feel this leaves one particular area of the tank free of sufficient flow. Depending on which way the outlet is pointing, this area might be the back wall, the front wall or the area in behind the outlet itself. (IMO) this is why the best position for the inlet/outlet is in the same corner of the tank. This way, regardless of the direction of flow, the water must return to it's point of origin to be uptaken again. It is for this reason that I feel the 2215, on a four foot tank, would be underpowered. I just think it would run out of puff before the water flow reached the other end of the tank, particularly after a few weeks worth of gunk buildup on the filter media. I'd still be going with the 2217 (if an Eheim it must be), at the least. (Certainly not trying to disprove anyone elses POV, with this, just my 2c. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 Re point 1....your arguement is irrelavent because Ehiem rate the 2215 for a 350 litre tank....I BELIEVE THEM! Re point 2.....see point 1 This belief was commonly held (and one that I once subscribed to also), until recently. Incorrect....Germans(Europeans) have always know it to be rubbish. I just think it would run out of puff before the water flow reached the other end of the tank, particularly after a few weeks worth of gunk buildup on the filter media. Not a lot of logic...Sorry....if the water enters the tank at 500l/hr at one end it has to leave at the same speed at the other......otherwise the tank would overflow! I have posted several times a scientific paper that compares bioballs with flocked media for performance as a biological media....it show a graph where there is a dramatic improvement in the performance of both media the slower the flow rate.....that's why air driven sponge filters are the best biological filters....A SLOW FLOW RATE I'll hunt it down and post it again if it Helps You don't have to believe me....that's ok. But Eheim do know what they are talking about! Truth is....in a properly stocked, heavily planted tank that you don't overfeed and you do weekly 30% water changes......you don't need filtration....a small power head or airstone for some circulation would suffice....but the Industry wouldn't want to hear that..... It's not what I'd recommend a novice should do either.....most tanks are overstocked,under planted and overfeed.....hence filtration is needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghengis Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 Oooookaaaay... Clearly my opinions have put someones nose out of joint. I am sorry, I will try to alter my worldview to suit yours immediately, if not sooner. There is a commonly held belief that the higher the turnover the better(I don't agree).... This belief was commonly held (and one that I once subscribed to also), until recently. Incorrect....Germans(Europeans) have always know it to be rubbish. Arguing against a point that you yourself raised...? Certainly not the most conventional way of having one's opinion heard, but I'm sure the Germans/Europeans do it, so I guess it must be OK. Are you forgetting the old rule "one cannot have too much filtration"...? I might reiterate, if it's OK for me to do so: (Certainly not trying to disprove anyone elses POV, with this, just my 2c. ) At the end of the day, everyone has their own opinion. Flaming someone for raising theirs only serves to cause everyone to get a little hot under the collar (a feeling I have no doubt you are experiencing right now...not nice is it?), and defeats the purpose of a PUBLIC FORUM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 Lets get it straight.... In my initial post I didn't knock your opinion.....I gave mine and it was different to yours You chose to pull it apart ....a paragraph at a time.....and I responded I don't mind a debate....even an argument....provided it is logical I do have strong opinions....based on 40+ years of fish keeping and I have no tact....I say what I think....I'm not always right....and am Happy to be proved wrong Please if you have read my post and assumed I'm upset....really I'm not.... I was just providing data/comment to support my belief and are just as Happy for you to respond....paragraph at a time! Debate on these issues is important and no one should get upset I'm not and I hope you aren't either! Let's not make this post about our difference of opinion....or filtration philosophy The issue is.......regardless of your or my opinion....Eheim make a Great product and I believe you can trust their advise.....simple!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP21 Posted November 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 Thankyou very mcuh for your input everyone. This appears to be a matter of personal opinions and what has worked and been successful for each individual. I chose Eheim because I have heard so many good things about them and didnt know really much about any of the other brands. . I will let you know how I go. I will do a bit more reading on it as well..Thanks Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kchadwick Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 Hi Jen I'm not going to wager into the filter size argument but I would like to recommend the Hydor brand. I have a Hydor Prime 20 for a 75L tank and think it is great! I know eheim are the most popular in Australia but they are quite expensive and from my research this is a bit of an Australian 'fetish'. Overseas forums have quite differing opinions. I would also recommend changing your carbon for ceramic noodles as carbon can tend to leach back into the water once it is loaded. Cheers Chaddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lambo Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 flow rates are based on a brand new, completely empty, filter. If a filter is rated at 600lph, that will be the amount of flow seen right at the outlet point, without filter media or hoses. A simple test would be to grab a stopwatch and calculate how long it takes a given filter to fill a bucket with or without media etc. Of course, to do this, one needs to actually have purchased the filter already (unless you have a spare lying around), which makes this experiment somewhat redundant... So I know this thread is getting old, but I am pulling it back up. It happens it turn out that I have just purchased an Eheim 2217, still sitting in its box (I'm lazy and have not set it up yet). I'm gonna have to try this test out now to see what the flow rates are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghengis Posted December 7, 2008 Report Share Posted December 7, 2008 Nice one! Looking forward to the results, lambo :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callatya Posted December 7, 2008 Report Share Posted December 7, 2008 Ohhh, old thread, but since someone has already kicked it up, i'll just add that it is very hard to choose a filter based on tank volume alone. I tend to aim for around 8x turnover per hour, but that it mainly because I'm a lazy, overstocking, overfeeding type of keeper that likes making caves and creating dead spots. I have a few tanks with no filtration at all, some with air-driven, some with very chunky powered filters, and one with just powerheads to keep the water circulating. It is horses for courses and it would be a rare thing to have anyone agree on filtration because each and every person will maintain and stock tanks differently and judge things by that standard. If you haven't purchased yet, it might be easier to give a better recommendation if we knew something about how the tank was going to be decorated, stocked and maintained. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghengis Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 It happens it turn out that I have just purchased an Eheim 2217, still sitting in its box. I'm gonna have to try this test out now to see what the flow rates are. Any results, yet, lambo? I have a small concern with the test, and that is that there is no universal standard for the advertising of flow rates... For eg. Brand A might advertise 650lph, but only flow 550. Brand X might advertise 450lph and flow 450... If the Eheim flows as it says it does, this makes us still none the wiser when choosing a Fluval/Rena/AquaOne etc. We need someone to do a test on a few different filters, or have folks contribute their individual results. I'd be keen for this, but my filter is now established and full of gunk, so the results could be tainted... I might think of a way around it, we'll see. Anyway, still keen to see how you go with your Eheim...hurry up, already! :whistling: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lambo Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Still have not done this. Will try to do it soon. I'm thinking I'll do 3 tests of empty and full to try and get an average. It'd be good if other brands were tested. Might be a good gauge as to how good the equipment of each brand is. If a brand is willing to make false flow rate claims, then maybe the equipment they sell will not last as long? Then again, I've been told by others that all the different equipment for each brand is made in the same factory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP21 Posted December 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 Hi All, I see this was bought up again, Very interested to see if you have managed to test this as well. I went ahead and got the 2217 and that was definitely the best way to go. I dont think the 2215 would have been enough. I have just got the standard media in it minus the carbon and have added a purigen sachet as I have some driftwood in there and didnt want the stained water. It is only lightly planted at present as we have to order all of my plants in and am doing it in a couple of lots. Another thing is I would like some advice on placement of inlet and outlet. (everyone probably has their own theories on this as well) At present I have the outlet in the left have corner on the back. The inlet I have about 4/5 of the way up the left side of the tank horizontally. It appears to push the water all the way to the end of the tank and then returns. Is this the best position?. Also do people turn their filter off for feeding as my fish seem to have to chase their food. Thanks Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghengis Posted December 14, 2008 Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 Just to clarify, by "inlet", do you mean the bit with the strainer on the end? If yes, that should be down near the substrate to collect all the gunk floating around the lower area of the tank. I think you're on the right track with having the in- and outlets in the same corner, though. As for feeding, I don't turn the filter off. My fish have gotten used to queing up in the current at one corner of the tank and going into a frenzy as the food races past them...then they'll sit there and wait until the food comes back on the return lap, and have another hit at it. Quite humorous, actually :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP21 Posted December 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 Oops.. Thanks Genghis.. I have written them the wrong way around. The outlet is about 4/5 horizontally up the left hand side and the inlet is down near the bottom. As for feeding yes it is a mad scuffle. I will persevere with it then. Thanks Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lambo Posted December 21, 2008 Report Share Posted December 21, 2008 I've finally tested this out. Didn't realise it would take me so long to do it. These are the averages of 3 trials. Empty = 968 Liters per hour Full = 952 Liters per hour Could the height of the fish tank also affect what kind of readings you obtain? If the filter has to pump the water up higher, then maybe it slows the flow a little? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnylass Posted December 21, 2008 Report Share Posted December 21, 2008 These filters have me intrigued I'm going to have to do some reading up on them. Oh and Genghis, I spat tea everywhere when I read your comment on the fish queuing up, mine do exactly the same thing. Its fricken hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kchadwick Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 with regards to height of tank - this does make a difference. The height is called Head and there is usually a maximum head given in the manual with the filter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghengis Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 I've finally tested this out. Didn't realise it would take me so long to do it. These are the averages of 3 trials. Empty = 968 Liters per hour Full = 952 Liters per hour Could the height of the fish tank also affect what kind of readings you obtain? If the filter has to pump the water up higher, then maybe it slows the flow a little? How do your results compare with the "advertised" flow rates? And... with regards to height of tank - this does make a difference. The height is called Head and there is usually a maximum head given in the manual with the filter This is gonna take some thinking about, but the height of the tank actually does not effect the flow... Now, before I get lynched, I used to believe as you did, chaddy. What you need to think about is the filter in the OFF position... You set the filter up, with the in/outlets in place, and prime the system, by creating a siphon. As the siphon gets going, water flows into the canister (of course). But it won't stop there. The water will continue to fill the system, right the way back up the outlet hose to the tank. It doesn't matter how high the tank is, the siphon will take care of most of the flow to and from the tank. The L/ph, or gph, only drives the water out of the outlet at a particular rate. What does matter is the kind/amount of media of media and how gunked up it is, as to how fast the water escapes the outlet. Another reason to compare actual and advertised flow rates... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lambo Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 It's a 2217, with an advertised flow max of 1000 lpm. Even with the filter full of media, that's 95% of the advertised maximum. Not too shabby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghengis Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Yeah that's pretty good. Still curious about a multi comparison, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.