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maddzvk

copper HMPK x black lace HMPK

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ok some more fry pics
and yeah we can sex most of them(besides the runts) --> ventrals make it so much better!
ScreenShot2013-12-08at55900PM_zpscdbb516

one of my light bodied bubs. im a fan of it.(female we think)
ScreenShot2013-12-08at55754PM_zps7f931b1

another light fry (boy we think)
ScreenShot2013-12-08at55749PM_zps271ea9e

Edited by maddzvk

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Two not sure's look to be developing broader ventrals - I'd go with male I think...and the probably male, quite possibly a marble with a fish suit on :P

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TheYre still quite small size wise so I'm waiting for more growth before I guess genders pretty confident with the others though

An excuse me marble In a fish suit you better not be being mean bout my bubs or ill go all mumma bear defensive on ya (just joking)

the angle of photo didn't help but showed his colours nicely and thy had just pigged out on live worms

want to guess the genes of the light fry for me BT since you're good at thy stuff. Already starting to plan f2 from this lot but I also need to visit black lace genetics

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Ok - I'll put up some suggestions and Paul can shoot them down ;)

Black Lace is based on blbl with fertile black (fb) and the Vf gene (I think)

Copper is blbl++

That's all pretty straight forward but the light bodies you have show additional players in the mix.

The earlier suppliers of genes in the family tree may have been Blbl, with extra modifiers, would give you teal, which is closer to the light bodies you have...but not quite.

I think there is a chance of some Cambodian (cc) in the mix or the nr1 gene may be having an increased effect - but I'd go with cc.

So maybe, and this cant be definitive until you crossed a pair of the light bodies and see what comes out (and you may even have to wait until an F3 to be sure), but I'd go with the blbl genetics of the parents, with additional metallic modifiers from a teal grandparent somewhere in the past, with just a hint of Cambodian.

How's that work for you?

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denning seem to think the light bodies may darken up more.
at 8 weeks though have some doubts.
its mostly the black lace i have trouble finding info on specific genes for guessing fry outcomes, heritability and also selecting for it from fry as i would nice a few laces later on. i'm all over copper and metallic blue genetics grasp it so good maybe thats why i like them :P
plan is to keep 4 or so pairs from this spawn and have two pairs breeding for the lightest fry and two breeding for the darkest fry. but they still need to MA-TURE some more.
speaking of which slight bump
it looks like few of our newest jarred fry may have velvet which SUCKS we've gone ages and ages with out ever having velvet and then BAM in one week 17 fish with velvet across two species :(
gonna bleach the **** out of some equipment tomorrow! and start aggressively treating this mofo of a disease.
(soory micheal and ids :P)

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hey Maddy,

if you're wondering about black lace genetics, then the simple answer is that black lace is recessive. This means that if the sire of this spawn isn't carrying black lace genes, then you can expect black lace back if you mate siblings back to each other.

Only problem is the iridescent layer that will cover the black. You've got 3 different factors to consider.

First... type of blue (steel, royal or turquoise). You know that the sire in this pair is steel based (copper = blbl++). You can assume that the dame in this spawn is carrying royal blue irid genes (blBl) because the fry seem to be steel (blbl) and royal (blBl) iridescent appearance. If she were steel based, then all the fry would look the same (blbl). If she were turquoise (BlBl) again, all the fry would look the same i.e. royal blue (blBl). So, if partnering up sibling fry, you'll have to pick between a steel pair, a royal blue pair or a steel x royal pair.

Second. .. the metallic modifiers. All these fry should be only carrying one metallic modifier (that is if we assume the dame is not carrying any metallic genes). So, the fry in this current spawn should be either metallic steel or metallic royal blue. Breeding siblings back to each other will mean that 25% of subsequently fry will be non-metallic, 50% will carry one metallic modifier and the remaining 25% will be carrying two lots of the metallic gene.

Third... you need to consider the amount of iridescent coverage. The sire has spread iridescence (Si Si) which results in him having the iridescent coverage all over the body and fins as a complete layer. The female has wild type iridescent spread (si si), but so reduced that it's almost not visible at all. Spread is partially dominant over wild type spread and means that you get predominantly blue fish with some "red" wash when crossing SiSi with sisi. Because it's incompletely dominant, there will be some fry out of the current pairing that have more blue coverage than others. If you breed the next gen, then you'll be breeding Sisi to SiSi to each other. Some will be SiSi, some sisi and 50% will be Sisi. If you have SiSi over black lace, then you'll have a fish that looks like a very dark bodied blue fish. If you have Sisi over black lace, then you'll be looking at a blue fish with "black wash"... but note that not all will be completely black and may give a little red wash in the mix. If you have sisi over black lace, then the fish will look like a black orchid or a black lace depending on the intensity of the iridescent layer leaves it visible or less visible like the mum here.

Ultimately, if you go with an F2 out of this pairing, and partner up two metallic royal blue fish, theoretically you will get every type of blue, every type of metallic modifier and black fish too!

BTW, marble means that you'll get whatever is handed to you... and then it'll change!!!

Hope that hasn't been too confusing

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thanks paul.
i follow most of that from readings anyway but i dont practice it much :P.
since ive got you any idea on the light fry???

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I didn't see royal blue in the fry - or am I going colour blind :P anything is possible...the rest of me is falling apart so why not my sense of colour as well :(

Paul - black lace is a form of variegated fin isn't it, same as butterfly, only the black version?

Red wash - so this comes about from an impartial dominance of Si over si and the resulting incomplete coverage allows the red to come through...is that right?

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oh btw 23 fry.
finally cleared out the grow out tank (and have a new boy in conditioning ;) )and there 23 fry all up this spawn.
also i have a new spawn log to make and hopefully the other 4 pairs we have set up will spawn soon too :)

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maddy, the light coloured fry are likely to darken up a bit but not likely to get a full black/dark brown face. Probably just a brownish undercolour.

brenton, black lace is one of the forms of black... black lace, melano and double black. As far as I know, nothing to do with butterfly/variegated finnage.

also, yes, you can think of red wash/ siSi genetics in that way. however... you can still get red wash when you have SiSi.

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so velvets a bitch
6 out of the 10 fry that have it are dead this mornng :(
thankfully the others are all velvet free still atleast.

i also read that black lace comes out of marvble spawns maybe thats where brentons getting the Vf from???

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brenton, black lace is one of the forms of black... black lace, melano and double black. As far as I know, nothing to do with butterfly/variegated finnage.

also, yes, you can think of red wash/ siSi genetics in that way. however... you can still get red wash when you have SiSi.

I obviously need to do some study on black genetics...

If you can still get red wash with SiSi then I wont think of red wash/Si genetics in that way - because that would be wrong then wouldn't it :P

I'll go do some research (more research) on red wash and the reasoning behind it, and then start, or reactivate, a thread so I don't continue hijacking Maddie's spawn log :D

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Oh I don't mind Brenton I find black lace genetics really hard to find stuff on

Plenty on melano and inheritance not much on lace in fact pretty sure every page has te same little description copied :/

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so all fry with velvet died. when we returned from sydney no velvet survivors :(
the other fry are still doing well and velvet free its a shame though as we lost some of our biggiest fry :( and i think both my copper darls :'(
tey are just a growing. eating blackworms (live) and bulking up for the show season!!! which is fast approaching!!!

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looks its a pretty nice spawn so i cant complain to much just a bugger as i wont have as many to pick from for F2
the fry seem to have improved the father's anal shape dramatically (probably cause of the mothers real nice one)
halfmoon spread is apparent with very minimal rounding.
the dorsals are the main improvemnet required they need to broaden more so that at flare the overlap the caudal so,ewhate.
these are the smallest of our fry though so will see how they go when they get a cm or so bigger :)

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super angry at two of my spawn baby daddies right now but these guys are going super since the unfortunate velvet losses.
its looking like a female heavy spawn everyone has atleast one ventral infact all except one girl have two i think.
ill be keeping the whole F1 until i have viable F2 spawns then i may let a few ladies go to new homes. its looking like i have 3 pairs ill be spawning from f1
the first is the metallic blue full masked male he will be spawned with one of the masked females.
the second is the other big boy from the spawn he has better form than the masked boy he will go with the nicest lady fro the spawn

the third hopefully pair is a late blooming i think boy both are predominantly white fish with blue marbling.
still need to grow a bit more but im hoping bout march or june they may be in a spawn tank with some F2 eggs in a nest :)

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These guys are such spunks!!!!

We had a late blooming male last week in Wednesday which was great

So now we have

2x metallic royal blue males

1x metallic steel male

2x metallic riyal blue females

5x blue/white marble females (4x royal, 1x steel )

We did enter a pair in baa

They are still about in the small side but thy are bubs :P next show they'll be far more impressive :)

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probably my last update on this spawn as ill be trying for an f2 soon enough :)
unless they do well in a show then i might post that on here but we shall see
anyway here they are in their 4 month old glory

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