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Brenton

Hunting Green

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Unless most forums out there are hidden to search engines, AAQ is the latest information available concerning Dragons anywhere on the net - you guys should be proud, particularly Paul and Steffan. AAQ is also the place to find the latest info on many genetic discussions. Lots of articles out there, but most of the really good and comprehensive articles are over 7 or 8 years old. Doesnt seem to have been any really big breakthroughs since the arrival of CT's or the colour orange. The good news is we are due something new - could be green, could be something wonderful you are working on in your fishroom...hopefully both :)/>

I've been reading (shock horror - is that all this guys does?), all about copper genetics, metallics in general, lots about dragons, lots on genetics in Betta in general, lots more on green genetics, and what makes up structual colour and how it differs from pigmentation...oh, and some on ray splitting to mix it up a little ;)/>

I'm not going to give up on looking for a green, but I know it is highly unlikely to be anything outside the irid layer. Who knows, maybe I can get the variations on the structural layer to line up in such a way as it only shows green, and it breeds true - not much to ask is it? The laws of physics aren't set in stone are they?

Now for the more technical stuff - feel free to grab a beverage or go back to a more interesting post (this gets pretty long)

For those of us who are new to the game but wish to continue playing along:

Top colour layer (the iridescence layer)

BlBl = turquoise; blbl = Steel Blue; Blbl = Royal Blue (all co-dominant or have intermediary dominance)

At this point it is good to remember the symbols for the iridescent gene, because without it, we have no chance of getting where we are aiming.

sisi = normal (wild-type) iridescence

SiSi = spread iridescence (except to the head)

Adding in a metallic modifier (+) gives us:

BlBl+nm = metallic turquoise; blbl+nm = metallic steel blue; Blbl+nm = metallic royal blue

Doubling up gives us:

BlBl++ = metallic green; blbl++ = copper; Blbl++ = Teal

Popular theory on AAQ is the belief that adding Dragons into the mix brings 4x the modifiers to the table:

A cross between metallic fish and non-metallic should yield 50% metallics. So some of the fry will look like dad. If he's got x2 of the metallic modifier then ALL fry with be metallic, but none of them will be AS metallic (i.e. none will be metallic green, teal or copper - they will be metallic turquoise, metallic royal blue or metallic steel depending on the underlying blue colour of the two parent fish).

Ps. Back to the dragon issue, from what I've read it seems that it's not completely understood, but works in a partially dominant way. Fry from dragon to non-dragons yields metallic fish but more metallic than that predicted. Strange that I read reports of Dragon x Metallic = 100% copper... suggesting dragon is like having x4 metallic modifiers!!! Possible that it represents a chromosomal doubling/replication of the metallic gene, so that all offspring from a dragon receives more than it's share of the metallic modifier - hence, coppers where you'd expect 50% metallic fry, 50% copper fry.

 

So, my current spawn if male is just metallic and female is normal turquoise (BlBl+nm x BlBlnmnm)

F1: 50% Turquoise (BlBlnmnm) + 50% hetro metallic turquoise (BlBl+nm)

F2: from BlBl+nm crossed back to male parent = 25% metallic green BlBl++

F3: BlBl++ sibling cross = 100% metallic green

But I'm fairly certain male is a dragon so does that then give me a current pairing of (BlBl++++ x BlBlnmnm)

F1: 100% pheno metallic green dragons who carry the non-metallic gene as well (BlBl++nm)?

F2: BlBl++nm sibling cross = 100% metallic green dragons with a small possibility of a standard turquiose somewhere in there. (still struggling with complicated punnett squares)

If you're still with me and awake - I present you with a virtual clap on the back and a hearty thanks.

For the more genetically enabled among us, is the above assumptions right, partcularly where the dragon genes are concerned (if the theory is right)?

Edited by Brenton

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Well done Brenton. First I must congratulate you on the massive effort you are putting into this, and the effort to make a nice summary of it for anyone looking at this for future reference.

In regards to your assumptions and calculations, I guess they're correct... as far as they can be. Problem is, that the genetics of dragons have yet to be defined so we can't really do calculations based an a theory that is nowhere near being proven. The other problem is taking an assumption about the genetics of the parent fish... very hard/almost impossible to know just by appearance.

If your male is of dragon heritage, I would assume he is from a dragon/non-dragon cross as he looks metallic with thicker than usual scaling but without having that classic very thick dragon scaling. So your starting point will not be dragon x non-dragon and so complicating any calculations. In addition, descriptions of dragon genetics state that it is partially dominant (or incomplete penetrance) so this will further complicate your calculations.

I'm not sure I'm helping you in your quest for green or understanding genetics, but I think you're on the right track with this spawn. keep up the good work!

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Don't sell yourself short, Paul. I reach, you help me grasp...we will get there, and along the way, we may even conduct some of those dragon genetic experiments you need to either prove, alter or redirect your theory.

First point: what is required for us/me to further work on this theory?

Second: male = half dragon...I can buy that. Not the really heavy scaling I see on most pics showing an example of a dragon - so one step further back than I originally anticipated - bummer. And with incomplete penetrance at play, it could be worse.

And my spawn result is getting smaller by the day, and when you only start with 50 or so, losing one or two fry a day means, in three and a bit weeks, I think I'm almost into single digits :(

I'm missing something there me thinks...

Takes self to corner...remember, this is a long end game...don't be discouraged. At worst, you have to start again, but at least I have a compatible pair to work with...

What was that first sign of madness again? ;)

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Is this off-base? If not, then I get it. If it is off the mark, then I'm in bigger trouble than I thought I was...

Taken from http://www.backyardc...plete-penetrant and paraphrased (removed mention of chickens) (and added to for clarification and to align it with Betta) by me...

Dr. Ron Okimoto has said:

There area lot of times that you can't tell that the heterozygotes (carriers of both a dominant and a recessive form of the gene) have the dominant gene. These cases are usually called incomplete penetrance. Sometimes fish (dragons) that are homozygous for the dominant allele do not express the phenotype or only partially express it (such as Betta with heavier scaling but not full 'dragon' scaling). These cases are also called incomplete penetrance.

Edited by Brenton

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Yes I think that's about it.

The classic thick white dragon scaling on the body hasn't appeared with blue/turquoise fins. We don't quite know why that is.

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Then fingers crossed I get a nice female out of my remaining fry so I can cross back to dad to see what I get in an F2...if nothing else, it should add some more data to the dragon file.

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Ha...Paul mentioned I'd jumped in at the deep end of things with hunting green, and now the wife would like me to look into a BF as well, so I'm doing my research and found this comment from Jim Sonnier (http://www.bettas-jimsonnier.com/genetics4.htm):

BUTTERFLY BETTAS are Bettas that have the mutant gene that causes variegated fins. The first color affected by this mutation was Red, but now Butterflies can be found in most of the other colors as well. Some Butterflies have fins that are almost totally Red except for the edges. Other Butterflies have almost completely Clear fins. There are Butterflies of all degrees in between. The ideal Butterfly pattern shows an equal division between Red and Clear on the fins. The variegated fin mutation is dominant but the effects are highly variable from fish to fish. Usually a spawning will produce a few outstanding Butterflies and many that do not have a very good pattern. To develop a Betta strain with the perfect Butterfly pattern would be a notable accomplishment for any breeder!

I would find something else difficult to attempt. By the sounds of it, this will be another area of incomplete penetrance by a dominant gene...and of course, I want a green one ;)

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I've got some platinum dragon pairs coming from thailand, and a dragon F1 spawn you're welcome to experiment with. The spawn (as youve seen on my fb) has irrid, metallics and a combination of black, red and blue genetics and are all carrying platinum from dad!!

TALK ABOUT CONFUSING ****.

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CC - you have me intrigued...

What spawn have I seen on FB - who are you? :)

Happy to play with any spawn results...happy to buy a breeding pair as well - if you ship.

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Back on the Hunting Green program...

For those of you who are members of Bettas4All, take a look at this pair of 'metallic green' HMPK.

Do you think they are metallic green (BlBl++), or more teal (metallic royal blue Blbl++), or possibly, metallic steel blue (blbl+nm)?

Did I forget to put the link in here...Bettas4All

Edited by Brenton

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I'm leaning towards a metallic steel blue (blbl+nm). But that could be from the position of the lighting. From the picture it appears that the lighting comes from a forward direction and that always messes with the lovely colour of blue. Guess the only way to truly tell is what sort of blue he gets from his spawn.

Just personal input. :)

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As for colour - agree with you Dylan, but these are a sibling pair from Joep, so my guess is they will maintain their colour. Look at the female, her pic was taken without the flash and she looks metallic steel blue as well...

No wonder there is no such thing as a green Betta in the world, nobody can agree on what is actually green!

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Something to compare :)

Here is my turquoise female from Jarrod:

Kateinprofile.jpg

She has the iridescent layer shining brightly :)

Now here is her son after she was spawned with a marble dragon...

42cm.jpg

Question: Is this metallic green?

He seems more metallic than mum, but BlBl+nm is metallic turquoise...is that what I'm seeing here?

He's being paired up with his sister as we speak (although she is more blue, so both should carry the metallic modifiers of dad's dragon heritage and the punnet square should be something like:

Bl Bl

Bl BlBl BlBl

bl Blbl Blbl

so - 50% 'turquoise' and 50% blue

Not sure how to factor in the modifiers, but it should be a possibility to have a percentage of BlBl++, but, with dad's dragon being a partial penetrance gene, it may also be that the double modifiers wont have effect I'm looking for...

Hopefully something a little more metallic greenish arrives in the fry and I can post pics of turquoise, metallic turquoise, and metallic green here :)

Once I find the metallic green, and fix it, then I'll be looking to introduce the nr1 gene from one of the other CTPK lines to get to the way point of grass green...in 2015...or so ;)

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Oh just read this

I would say moms actually metallic turquoise (has one metallic modifier) the reason i say that is the presence of the 'yellow' wash iridophores :)

This means if her and the dragon daddy has metallic genes as you've indicated this fry would be BlBl++ not BlBl+nm as first thought

which means metallic green :)

I woke up this morning and one of the first things I read was this http://bettasource.com/more-betta/genetics/solid-colors/understanding-iridescent-structure/ :P

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Trust it to be missing the BlBl+nm picture....and the BlBl++ pic still looks blue to me...

BUT - you're right. The yellow iridophores evidence is quite compelling and something I hadn't noted before - and such a simple way to note the metallic modifier presence. (Well done, Maddie!)

Not doubting the source, or you, Maddie, but we may as well get confirmation from the genetics guru...Paul, is this all correct?

Edited by Brenton

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Pretty sure that reticle is by joep so not unreliable ;)

Also just something I think I've mentioned before but the IBC in area one actually has metallic and non metallic green classes ;) I think I pointed you towards one of Karen's stunning green HMs a wile ago

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Yeah - I saw it was authored by Joep, but there's no harm in getting a second opinion :P

I remember Karen's fish, but the American's call some fish green that simply look blue from other angles...and they never mention turquoise.

As for a non-metallic green, not sure how one would get there...I think this may be another case of the Americans calling a blue something it's really not...but, I'll reserve that judgement for now, as I've simply not researched it enough

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Hey Brenton... I know only some of what Joep knows seeing as I read mostly his info on betta genetics to learn what I know now.

Regarding your dame and the boy you've got in the pics above, I don't know exactly what genetics we are looking at. I assume the girl came from this spawn:

http://www.ausaqua.net/index.php/topic/14909-royal-blue-ct-pair/

If so, it's a little odd that Jarrod thought both parents were royal blue, but he ended up with blue and turquoise only, and that your girl should look metallic? ?? I'm really not sure if she is metallic at all.

So if she's turquoise, then they boy you have pictured is a cross between a non-metallic and a dragon... thereby could only be best described as a partial dragon (and not metallic green, BlBl++). Note as an interesting side point he also has butterfly type coloration in his fins... so you'll get some marbles and butterflies out of him too.

Dunno if any of that is helpful. Just thought I'd chime in.

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Always appreciated Paul.

Ok - so could the 'evidence' of the presence of the yellow iridophores, be a case of the reflection/refraction of light through the irid layer...there was no velvet around when this photo was taken...but I'll take another of mum when I get a chance to compare.

Until the possibility was mentioned by Maddie, I'd always classed her as a straight turquoise, which, with the dragon influence of dad, would make this fella metallic turquoise (BlBl+nm)...but what about the chance of the double modifiers possibly available through dad's dragon genes? If dad is bringing ++++ to the table, then is it plausible F1 male could be BlBl++ even though mum probably isnt carrying modifiers?

Butterfly - yep! I was quite pleasantly surprised by his markings (his brother carries them too, but not as well balanced). Although not completely balanced (as much as we'd all like), it's not a bad start for an F1. Another gift from Dad it seems, along with the marble gene...and here's another thing, no red...now I'm pretty sure all these fry showed the presence of red as they began to get their colour - so no red in this fella now may indicate the red-loss gene on top of everything else (mum, I think, came from a red wash line and dad obviously carried red).

If only I can this sibling pair to spawn....

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