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maddzvk

breeding dumbo's

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summary of dumbo gene stuff

can be bred into long finned bettas not just plakats but some people seem to think this reduces quaity of life since theres an immense amount of finnage on one fish (its heavy) and the ears and tail are much more prone to being ripped, finrot etc... some people report they just hang at the bottom of the tank all day not moving but thier were similar worries when the HMPK dumbo line was being started.

dumbo gene is recessive (need two e's to show the trait, homozygous for "ee")

breeding 'ee' to 'ee' produces pretty much 100% ee, offspring however the fins are often much larger than the parents and often asymetrical, poorly formed etc resulting in a <50% cull from an ee X ee spawn

(similar to how you shouldn't breed doubletails together ctually)

for these reasons breeding homozygous 'ee' parent to a heterozygous 'Ee' is prefered.

there is a lower rate of dumbo offspring ( approx 50%) however the fins are not overly large/are better formed, more even etc and the cull rate is lower for this spawn

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=99145 (useful forum discussion specifically elephant ear breeding)

feel free to add, comment, disagree... away

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right time to add some anecdotal evidence/discussion I've found around the place

General facts about the gene
it's the recessive gene..strongly
it also seems to need to be constantly improved upon. depending on parents pectoral size.
eg F2 you'll need to selectively breed larger pectoral fish together to enlarge them in F3 up to that 1/2-2/3 body length size
also form constantly needs to be improved as most dumbo lines are lacking good finnage form.
also possible it is multifactorial. pectorals are not only enlarged in length but also width.
also symmetry in shape/size and colour is a frequent issue.
branching often seems excessive with enlarged pectoral fish


physical issues with breeding dumbos:
increased asymmetry and size in fry when large pectoral parents are bred together (undesirable traits- pectorals larger than 2/3 body length, pectorals which are not round(are long but not wide, or irregularly shaped), asymmetry between the two pectorals )

The finnage for the most part on a lot of the Big Ears is ragged. Short caudals on the Halfmoons and smaller dorsals which I'm sure can be improved in a few generations of selective breeding. The Plakats seem to fair better with their finnage.
a few lines also seem to show alot of overbranching
and colours generally neglected and is washed out.


difficulties with wrapping in some specimens. peter mentioned on one page that some may need to have pectorals clipped prior to spawning as otherwise the pectorals 'get in the way' if this is the case the fish probably shouldnt be bred....
convo from ausaqua on facebook...https://www.facebook.com/groups/ausaqua/

  • Peter Yes I like the colours of the one on the right as well. I had a brief discussion with Todd Knight at the Betta Australis club meet on Tuesday night about the problems associated with spawning dumbo's. I ca't remember if it was Todds suggestion or mine, but it was mentioned that Dumbo's may need to have their pectorals trimmed for them to spawn successfully.
  • Leah I know of a few people who have spawned dumbo's successfully without trimming their pectorals at all. I disagree with your comment Peter
  • Peter That's cool Leah. Like I said it was a discussion. Some Dumbo's have trouble successfully spawning because their large pectorals get in the way. This was just one possible solution.
Ashlea Honestly if the pectorals were that large they needed to be cut before spawning I would say that one should reconsider perpetuating an already quite an extreme mutation. However, your two males are very nice Ronald. I particularly like the male on the right. Just be careful there isn't anything sharp in their tanks as their pectorals are quite easily shredded.

Breeding outcomes for large pectoral fish
anecdotal evidence
Jay says by mating a dumbo parent to a non dumbo he received 10% enlarged pectorals in F1

Richard says a similar mating gave him approximatey 2 out of 50 fry with bigger pectoral fry (4%) in F1
a sibling mating from Richard's F1 gave a few more enlarged pectoral fish including a nice Big Eared male that won 1st place and Best of Variety in an IBC show.
The others in this F2 spawn were Big ears to dumbo with a few that only had one pectoral colored and one clear but still Dumbo sized(assymmetry).
also form in terms of finnage is compromised and requires alot of selective breeding to create a dumbo fish which has good caudal dorsal and anal finnage as well as adequate size, shape and balanced pectorals...


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Keep up the good work Maddie! All information, including anecdotal, is good for new forms. Gathering it all in one place is super useful. Well done :)

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Hi Maddie,

Great write up :)

I'm very interested in your findings and have a few questions.

Was the F0 pair related or unrelated and were the pectorals on both parents quite large?

Have you experimented on pairs with different pectorals sizes, eg one with large pectorals and one with smaller pectorals (but still dumbo)?

If fry can show the ee trait with only one ee parent, is it still considered recessive or is it then considered Intermediary dominant?

Also do you have any pictures of the parents and resulting fry?

Cheers

Ronny :)

Edited by RonnyM

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Hi Ronny

Most of the evidence is from forums (particularly American)

my first few dumbos spawns all got culled and I moved into more positive fish but I still update when I get relevant info (maybe ill o in for round to later this year)

The other thing ill note Is a dumbo standard was only developed in 2013 so until then all fish that apeared enlarged were dumbo. If i go back and ask everyone do they have pictures if pare t were fins 1/4 or 1/3 or 1/2 body length and what about fu it's quite hard work but ill see if I can add some pictures and more definitive anecdotes in ;)

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