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kertaz

HM Copper/Bluish - opinions?

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Maybe too early for him to be critized as he's still too small for breeding, but I just would like some critics/opinion on him or how he'll turn out. This one is the 'unique' one in the spawn. Didn't show his almost full flare to anyone 'til today. And as the title said: HM Copper/Bluish, since I'm not sure what to say to his colour (he got almost half-half of copper and blue, but now the copper dominates more part of him)

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Me, I like him. :D

But I am no expert at judging Bettas yet.. So anything would be welcome :)

His flaring partner(not to be critized)

Those are the best shot I can take for now :(

Haven't properly set up the 'studio' dedicated to take pics of these guys yet..

These pics were taken when he's taking a 'rest' between each attempt to 'attack' his flaring partner through beanie box. So, may not be full flare after all. Might take vid of him later on.

70s vid, best shot probably towards the end of vid..

Edited by kertaz

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I think he's a very nice fish. Good 180 spread. Love the big dorsal. Anal fin slightly long but that's really nit picking. I'm not sure exactly what causes the variation in colour on coppers. I'm guessing that when it's purplish there is a red underneath and when it's bluish there's royal blue underneath. But I don't know for sure. Overall he's a very nice fish.

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Copper has a steel blue base - could it be that the extra metallic gene that causes copper doesn't have full coverage for some reason? What were his parents?

Comments same as Razzi's for his shape / form - looks a nice fish with good finnage and shape.... is the darkness on the tail just new growth or is he developing a butterfly type pattern? Could be a marble gene influencing the lack of full copper coverage perhaps?

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Thanks for the comments, Razzi and fishbites.

Parents were Copper-Black (Dad)

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And teal (Mum)

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Sorry, I just realized I got no full flare pics of both parents.. Got a vid of the dad at spawning though. Ness has the full flare of the dad, but it's her pics, so yea :P

And as for the black markings on the edge: I think its from the male side. Most of the male of this spawn have them. None of the female have them though.

These are some of his brothers:

Brother 1

Brother 2

Brother 3

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Hey Felix,

Don't take this personally, but I LOVE flexing my crit muscle!

He's a spectacular fish, and there's a good reason I've bought back some of that bloodline, with Razzi's volume and Fuzz's beautiful bloody face (n'awwww I miss him)

Formwize, he'll fill out and probably bits will grow more, but at this stage you really get the overall picture of how he'll mature.

I REALLY like his arched topline, no dumps and bumps or dippy face.

The dorsal is really upright, evenly branched, that webbing toward the back is not too extreme - Preecha told me that's something the show fish in Thailand try to avoid as best they can.

The Caudal has a great spread, edges are quite good (a little round) but still the best I've seen in a long while - branching is fairly even - although I'm curious about this bit:

ScreenShot2011-11-27at12615PM.png

it's in all the shots, and might just be where the tail sort of folds back when he's flaring and wiggling his bottom, but it's in all the shots (?)

His branching is borderline rosetail, so when you choose a female, be mindful of overly branched frilly - unless you like that sorta thaang.

The anal fin is a bit long, but again, has the nice rounded effect that I really like (a U shape) instead of pointing backward like a little Asymmetrical Plakat, so you'd use a nicely shaped female to compliment this when you breed.

Nice full ventrals, body shape is good too - he's got some growing and maturing to do, Fuzz was quite large, and was still growing after I got him at 6 months - I'd say this is a line with faint giant percentage (Fuzz was easily 5.5cm long in the body, and 8.5 from nose to end of Caudal)

I have to say, Hi tower looked like he was going to be a black x copper

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But then he coppered-out over the top, I imagine most of your spawn will do this eventually.

IMG_7249.jpg

Grandpa image for reference (Felix, you have permission to use this anytime)

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Bottom line, he's lovely... give him 6 months and he'll be massive, and happy to take out any of the show titles!

x

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I guess with the bluey-green I was thinking that underneath the metallic layer the steel blue might still have a royal blue wash. This could have come from the teal mother. However fishbites could be onto something. Perhaps what we're seeing in the bluish areas is steel with only one copy of metallic. I'm planning a copper to steel cross in the near future. So all the offspring will be steel+. It will be interesting to see what that colour looks like.

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Razzi, with your abilities with the lense (as frustrating as it can be) maybe an outdoor photoshoot with natural light and no flash might be a good way to shoot and document the particular colours of metallic ? i.e. the confirmed colours.

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Thanks Ness. I wanted some feedbacks on him, as he's the only one with that colouration on my spawn, so I put this in Betta critique, so I appreciate your constructive feedback :) (didn't bring him to VicBetta show because I wanted even number of copper and blue, but I couldn't put him in either copper or blue -_- )

I don't really get the terms regarding the dorsal :confused:, especially the part that's "that webbing toward the back is not too extreme".

Also, the Thai breeder tends to avoid all 3? (upright dorsal, evenly branched and webbing toward the back is not too extreme). So, with my understanding, they're trying to breed one with not upright dorsal, uneven branch, and a webbing that's extreme toward the back? Sorry, you lost me on the dorsal part :embarrass:

So can his dorsal counted as good or something that needs to be fixed?

As for the caudal, did you see it on the vid as well? Now that you pointed out, I did see that part in the shots, less obvious in vid, but maybe still there too.

And for colouration - does that mean he got a different number of metallic copy in his upper body and got two copies in his lower body; which causes the different colouration top and bottom? or he got red on top part and royal blue on bottom part underneath? That sounds so awesome (and confusing) :lol:

Edited by kertaz

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Genetically he has to carry two copies of the metallic gene. But it's possible that the metallic iridescence is not spread evenly. The other thing to bear in mind is that the light plays tricks with irids and not all is as it seems in a photo.

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I think for this case it may not be a light trick. I have seen this boy close and personal and it does have have two shades of color, copper and blue tintish. If my memory serve me correctly, the copper color was express more in the top part of the body and the blue shade bottom part of the body.

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just my 2 cents worth.

this guy is pretty damn gorgeous <3 he's got a nice thick body and smooth, perfect-looking scales.

he's got a nice head too. not bumpy, but maybe a little too dippy.

very, very impressive spread. and i love the white tips on his ventrals. his caudal's a little short,

but it may grow a little more since he's young, though the anal's still pretty long.

his dorsal is nice and full, but the webbing i think is noticable in the 2nd and 3rd pics. the finnage is

nice and straight and towards the end it begins to look like a crowntail's dorsal. i think that's what they're referring to.

pretty much just a repeat of everything that's been said :P the genetics of colour confuses me to no end, so all

i can say there is that it's a very pretty gradient :lol:

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Hi Felix, I've skimmed through most of the comments above, but haven't had a chance to review them in detail. I'll agree with the general vibe... He's beautiful!!!

For specific criticisms though I will make a few points:

1. Caudal

a) shape - nice sharp corner at top, but quite rounded on bottom, so doesn't quite score on the perfect 'D' shape

b) length - looks a little short compared to the other fins in the pictures. Not as noticeable on video, and he's likely to have his caudal grow longer compared to other fins as he matures... So might not remain a criticism.

c) "frilliness" - Ness has pointed out that he's tending toward rosetail, and his caudal has a frilly look to it, with the appearance of "scalloping" around the edges. I like this look, but is not appreciated by all.

2. Anal:

a) length - I said the caudal is too short, others say the anal is too long,,, either way it means they aren't the same length, so he misses out on perfection here.

b) rays - they should be nice and straight. His sort of curl back towards the anal (especially the most posterior rays).

3. Dorsal:

No criticism here, just info. Any shape is OK, but should NOT be triangular, and should balance the fish out making it look symmetrical.

4. Colour:

Maybe you are looking at a marble teal. Royal blue base colour, x2metallic modifiers therefore...teal. Marble can knock out the turquoise bits of only some parts of the body therefore making the royal blue (teal) look steel (copper), while the other bits still look teal.

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The colour variation occurs in areas where there is commonly irid. I'm not convinced that marble is at play. I reckon the spread irid gene is not fully expressed causing the unevenness.

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Thanks for the feedbacks, MTS, paul and Razzi!

As Paul mentioned, I'm hoping he will grow his caudal some more, as I read somewhere that caudal will slowly catch up to other fins until 7 months old!

So, from the feedbacks, the things that he needs fixed are mainly his caudal edges and anal rays? (i.e: for next generation)

As for colour, it'd be neat to keep him half-half. :lol:, but I don't have any female with this colouration..

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