mumofthehoarde Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Ok I officially suck at doing searches on here...I can never find what I am looking for... Secondly..I am ashamed..I went to 3 LFS yesterday and didnt buy a single fish...barely even looked...What is happening to me? Third thing..and my real reason for posting. My CURSED BARRACKS.. I was talking to one of the LFS owners yesterday and he said maybe a pH crash is the cause of all my woes. Now not wanting to appear stupid infront of this guy (would rather appear stupid in front you guys as I can hide behind the veil of secretacy that I pretend exists on the internet) , I knodded and agreed to check up on that..... I came home and told my husband and together we dont have any real clue of what that actually means...I mean we can deduce from the title of it...the pH, well it crashes...that is where we stop on knowledge... What causes a crash? How come water that seems to be going along ok sudden ups and turns tail on you? The LFS's answer to it is chemically adjust pH but I am not a believer in that, I believe that if you force nature to change she will come back and kick your butt in no uncertain manor...it is better to work with nature. Sooooo how? I am using tank water as my tap water has a pH of 8+ Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melbournebetta Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Do you use carbonate hardness powder? (i feel like this is my chorus) but early days I had the same issue - fins melting left right and center. Get yourself a carbonate hardness kit, and test it - when water is soft/hard the ph will be unstable and will reflect this. Carbonate hardness powder buffers the pH and locks in the hardness. No more crash, no more bash, no more rot. Aquapix and a few other producers make it - not all LFS have it.... and it's the BUFFER you want not the hardness up or down (same as ph up or down being completely useless) ende. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Nut Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 I use Seachem Neutral regulator in my guppy and betta tanks as my water is incredibly soft. It increases my KH and gives my tap water more buffering capability. While our water comes out of the tap at a pH of 7, it drops to 6 (reads as yellow on my API test kit) after around 12-24 hours. While my wilds are thriving, I had been having difficulty with such a wildly swinging pH in my uncycled and cycled tanks. Because extreme pH fluctuations can be dangerous in closed systems such as aquariums, I've found my bettas' overall health has improved since using a buffering product. If your water has a low KH reading it has a low buffering capability. Therefore, your pH will tend to drop quite quickly as the water gases off. Because every unit of pH represents something like a ten times change in the acidity or alkalinity of your water, it can create problems for your bettas and other fish. This is why it is said that a stable pH is much more important than an ideal pH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_95 Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 I'm at school so I could only read your first post. To buffer my water I add coral to the filter, it helps a lot in stabalising the ph. That's the most natural way for a barracks. I find soil helps buffer the ph also.Bi carb and Epsom salts also work, can't remember the rates off the top off my head sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kertaz Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 What causes a crash? What causes crash is the lack of buffering capacity in your water. Depending on where you live; the water is treated differently in Australia. I think it's the local council that decides it? Regardless of who decides what water treatment, if your water lack carbonate hardness like others have mentioned; your pH will wildly swing up and down. Water has two hardness: Carbonate hardness (KH) or General hardness (GH). You will need KH to help your pH stabilises. How come water that seems to be going along ok sudden ups and turns tail on you? Because the pH swing doesn't happen instantly. It happens quick, as Wild Nut said, but not as soon as you put the water into the tank. The LFS's answer to it is chemically adjust pH but I am not a believer in that, I believe that if you force nature to change she will come back and kick your butt in no uncertain manor. Sooooo how? Unfortunately, I think this is impossible if you're using tap water. Simply because the water from the tap has already been chemically treated (and hence why we need dechlorinator). We also do not know what other chemicals and trace elements are present or lacking in the tap water unless you check with the local council. Bi carb soda will adjust the pH to the point where you want it if it's too low; basically it's pH up powder. But as far as I know, it won't help stabilising the pH. Seachem Neutral Regulator is awesome if you want to buffer your pH to be stable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbites Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Unless you're a chemist - please think before you go adding powders and other potions to your tanks to meddle with the pH.... as a general rule pH isn't a problem until you introduce something to unbalance the tank..... driftwood leeching tanins or a dead fish not taken out or over dosing with IAL, etc.... natural buffering with bits of coral or limestone type rocks is best... or mix in some marble chips with your normal gravel..... Chemical potions act fast and can cause a huge spike in ammonia if you're not careful..... at high pH ammonia can become lethal..... at low pH the ammonia converts to ammonium which is much much less harmful to fish.... then along comes someone with a bottle of pH UP or similar and withing minutes the pH is higher and the ammonium converst back to ammonia..... hey presto you've got an ammonia spike and gasping fish! Regular water changes and a good substrate or a good rock and things aren't that difficult to maintain a pH of 8.0 or 6.0 depending on the species of fish you are keeping. Everything that goes in to the tank can cause a change in your water chemistry - but this is reduced to minimal effect if you do regular water changes rather than a 50% change every month do a 10% change every week..... (don't do what I do.... do what I say ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Nut Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 The trouble is in my bare-bottom uncycled tanks, I need to do large water changes on an almost daily basis. However, because the tank water was 6 after a day, and my tap water was coming out at 7, it was stressing my fish and causing me issues. I chose a product I know wil stabilise the pH and maintain it. A lot of products only temporarily boost your pH and this is where you'll run into problems. I tested the Neutral Regulator on all my tanks before committing to using it, and the only tank it had trouble maintaining a stable pH in, was a 10 litre tank with nearly pitch-black water. Then the pH came out at around 6.8. I use crushed coral in all my cycled tanks to stabilise the pH long-term. My wild bettas just get a couple of 25% water changes a week, because as you mentioned, a rise in pH due to a large water change can cause an ammonia spike. It's annoying having such soft water. I would like at least some degree of buffering capacity <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Tried to respond early in the day but got busy with work. Here's what I was gunna say... Much like what's already been said. Mum, the question you're asking is a little difficult to comprehend without a full chemistry tutorial on pH, kH and pH buffers. Infact, I can't remember the majority of my high school chemistry, even though I was good at it back then! What you may be looking at is water that doesn't have any buffering capacity. If the pH is not buffered, then small shifts in dissolved chemicals can result in large swings in pH. The addition of carbonate to the water acts as a buffer, thereby giving you a stable pH even with the addition of lots of dissolved ions. You can overdo it of course, then you get a massive change in pH when you're out of the buffering range. Sources of carbonate ( = adding carbonate hardness) include buffering solutions (note some commercial products use phosphate buffers which raise their own concerns), coral, limestone etc. By adding them you should be able to prevent sudden fluctuations in pH and thereby protect your fish. Water chemistry can be very dynamic, so may need regular monitoring especially if you see your fish aren't performing as well as expected. Hope this helps. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bettarazzi Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Not sure if ph crash would really explain why one barracks works and the other doesn't. Aren't both barracks set up exactly the same way? I may have missed some of the posts in your barracks thread. But if they both have the same media/substrate/ornaments, all those things should provide the same buffering capacity (or lack of) in both barracks. Don't understand why one would behave differently. If one is crashing because your tank water is too soft then I would think the other one would crash as well. Why don't you try mixing the tap water with your tank water? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadoh Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 What filter media are you using in the sump? Have you changed any of it since any of this started? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumofthehoarde Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Unless you're a chemist - LOL not a chemist but own a chemist shop..Hes a pharmacist and I was studying med science B.C (before children).LOL We do understand pH chemistry...just didnt realise that is happens like that in an aquarium. Lab yes, tank doh!Sometimes you have to clear away a few cobwebs to get the brain functioning again. I have read some interesting articles on this process now. We are going to run some experiments on mixing the water. When we were solely on tap water there wasnt a bubble nest in sight. Maybe solely tank water isnt the answer either. Not sure if ph crash would really explain why one barracks works and the other doesn't. Aren't both barracks set up exactly the same way? Yes both barracks are set up the same. Treated the same. So dont know one would crash and the other hasn't...maybe is it laying in wait for me. We will continue the search...the more we learn the closer we get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Nut Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Something like corrosion of the taps where they join the pipe couldn't be a possibility could it? Some kind of leeching coming from the plastic pipes etc. that might be causing problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bettarazzi Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 They might be something to the leaching theory. Are the taps/drippers on the barracks metal or plastic? If they're metal, are they corroded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumofthehoarde Posted October 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 The good barracks has had the metal tap replaced with white plastic air control taps. Cursed barrack has original metal taps. I would assume the good barracks is older then the curse barracks as I purchased the cursed barracks early last year brand new. The metal taps are probably a bit corroded as they are harder to turn off then they were before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bettarazzi Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 I think the taps could be the problem. Try replacing them with plastic irrigation taps from a garden centre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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