Is this true about sibling Bettas?

[SiameseFightingFist]

"...the male siblings being raised in the ponds since they were hatched would have formed a hierachy among themselves and a pecking order established, which will provide the peace. But once they are isolated and starts to build their own bubble nests in their respective jars, their attitude will starts to change."

Source: http://redhillbetta.50webs.com/VideoWeb/index.html

Is that true? I have seen clips on youtube of Betta farms in Asia where they have large tanks or miniature ponds of Bettas swimming about.

[fishbites]

yep.. its true from my experience raising spawns in the one tank.... very little aggression until they are separated - can't return them to the same tank easily....

[SiameseFightingFist]

wow so is it possible to fulfill an impossible dream of having a tank with more than one male betta in it?

[Matt_95]

I woulnd't try it, peopel here still get aggresion in their spawn tanks so the agreesors need to be removed, anytime a male was removed from teh tank a new pecking order would need to be established, if it were that easy everyone would eb doing it ;)

[Fletch]

And all fish end up with chunks missing. :-)

[zhong89]

I have a tank with more than one male in it. Coz there's so many plants the male's chase gets tiring really easily and I've found bettas has a 'out of sight out of mind' tendency so as soon as one of the male can't see the other they're at peace again. Ness has seen my setup it's pretty funny. I barely have fin nips at all

[Matt_95]

I have two males in my sorority, they are pretty docile, finnage isn't the best they nip each other but don't bother chasing teh other down, its a 4 foot and they have plenty of spots to hide.

[melbournebetta]

This is a delicate discussion methinks.

obviously here you start off with - standard rules of engagement = males separate.

But we are having healthy discussion, and let's face it, there's always exceptions to every rule, such as Joans tank - it's HUGE and has, what? 4 males in it?

Let's keep in mind they were all spawn siblings (super blues) AND the tank is occupied by 80% THRIVING plant material.

I've found my sorority gets a bit narky after a certain amount of plant coverage is lost - so there is a bit of strength in the "out of sight out of mind" argument.

But don't think you can go out and get two shiny fighters and put them in a planted tank.

I once saw an 8 foot tank that belonged to my bosses about 10 years ago, had all sorts of weird stuff in it, (axis, goldies, huge range of fish) I don't think they did much research - and i'm sure they plowed through the fish....but it included two male VT fighters

Literally, one lived at one end, and the other at the opposing, they had an agreement, and were BOTH passive fish (RARE) Lord knows how long they lasted with everything else crawling around the tank.

I'd exercise caution mentioning to anyone that it's possible for male fighters to co-exist, mostly because they ALL need to have exceptional temperaments AND you need to be sure they don't at any point mature into dominant I'm-going-to-kill-you types.

If you don't mind waking up one day to some very dead fish - then yah! awesome! go for it! i'm going to go call the rspca now!

(hahah, I realize it's just a question, so not jumping down your throat here )

When I've had spawns and they're in the grow out - they generally develop territorial and/or aggressive behaviors between 8-12 weeks, and because I like spotless finnage - they get jarred.

If left for much longer, they just tear each other up - sure, there's a hierarchy, but at some point they get old enough and you can just watch the numbers drop - and the alpha will have one eye, two fins left, lots of tattoos and a hells angel jacket.

Even the Thai's separate earlier in the hopes that rays wont become broken and the fish's entire immune system can focus on growth - not repair.

Not something I'd waste my time or my fish's energy testing out... I'm sure we've all had some experience with that one "lover not a hater" male - and they're lovely, but i'd suggest those are the ones suitable for a nice little community tank - with OTHER species of fish.

And those, are my thoughts on the matter (:

-Ness

Oh, and PS.... Much like in a sorority - your males with become somewhat bored of each other and not flare quite as much - BETTA THAT DONT FLARE?!?!?!?

What's the point!?

(god I love un-carding my fish, highlight of my day)

x

[SiameseFightingFist]

ah dammit I knew it'd be too good to be true. Why can't they just get along, bollocks. Then I could have more of em.

Joan - have you got a pic of your tank? I don't think it'll work with my tank because it's only a 90L (rough equivalent of a 2 foot tank) and my current betta has shown a curiosity with every nook and cranny so I'd be afraid they won't just stay in one spot.

[Matt_95]

You could try another species from the splendens complex like imbellis if you want multiple males, you would need females as well and it could get pricey, they don't have long finnage either.

[melbournebetta]

I have to boast at this point that I had THE BEST DREAM the other night, I was in Thailand and looking for the PERFECT fish (aka misison impossible)

and the way they displayed them was like a vending machine, except when you punched in the numbers the one you chose got released into this huge community tank and just flared constantly at the other boys that you'd chosen earlier.

Each one better form and colour than the next!!!

N'awwwwwwwww, the agony!!

I did hate waking up that morning.

:P

[SiameseFightingFist]

Thanks Matt, I'll have a look at those. Why would I need females too?

It's not so much males that I want for the sake of male bettas. It's more because the fish I've seen at the LFS and what I have in my tanks, they seem to just interact with themselves, whereas the one betta I've got seems much more intelligent and more inquisitive, it'll actually come up to the glass and look me in the eye.

and the way they displayed them was like a vending machine

I bet they've got that in Japan already, they've got vending machines for anything and everything there.

[Matt_95]

To disperse any aggresion I think, I think you would need a big ish tank for a colony also.

[melbournebetta]

Hahahha, yes, I know full well what you mean, I was astounded in Japan with the things you could buy from vending machines, gotta love anonymous purchasing power.

You should try putting together a sorority tank, I resisted it for ages, but now it's my absolute FAVOURITE tank, and if you put some energy into getting some great colours you end up with a handsome tank, with an I.Q that isn't going to eat it's self !

I love my Beyonce tank!

[SiameseFightingFist]

you end up with a handsome tank, with an I.Q that isn't going to eat it's self !

What do you mean by I.Q there?

I have considered a female tank, it's not so much a male or female that concerns me, it's more that I've just discovered how amazing and intelligent these little things are and I'd love to have more of them.

I don't suppose anyone could recommend other intelligent-ish fish?

I'd exercise caution mentioning to anyone that it's possible for male fighters to co-exist, mostly because they ALL need to have exceptional temperaments AND you need to be sure they don't at any point mature into dominant I'm-going-to-kill-you types.

I've been very very lucky with this betta I've got which is my first one. He gets along really well with the other fish, sometimes he'll even go up to them to see what they're doing. On the very very rare occasion I might see him half-heartedly or playfully chasing one of the other fish but I get the impression it was just for fun and definitely didn't look aggressive. It didn't bother the other fish very much after they zip away.

Oh, and PS.... Much like in a sorority - your males with become somewhat bored of each other and not flare quite as much - BETTA THAT DONT FLARE?!?!?!? What's the point!?

I would love that if that were so! Then I could have more of them!

[Matt_95]

The most intelligent fish I have owned so far in freshwater would be my angels, very interactive.

Others would be goldfish and black calvus :)

[SiameseFightingFist]

Foiled again, all three fishes are not suitable tank mates with the betta as I understand it, notwithstanding goldfish are a coldwater species. :alright:

I looked up black calvus, interesting looking fish!

[Matt_95]

My angel fish are fine with my bettas, yours is a plakat right? I wouldn't put them with a long finned betta because they can be nippy but the yleave my girls alone and the boys fins are all short as well.

[SiameseFightingFist]

I went for a short finned one, which I think is a plakat?

If I can put a couple of angels in there that'd be good. I wasn't sure cos I'd heard here that they can be fin nippers.

[Matt_95]

Yea he's a plakat, should be fine, I think Yan may keep some bettas with her angels?

[paul]

Hey SiameseFightingFist, I've sorta been a little slow to respond to your initial question, but there are many valid points made already. The simple answer is no you shouldn't keep more than one male in the same tank (undivided). In relation to the quote you used, there is some validity to the statement, which I can attest to. My last spawn is still in the grow out and well and truley should have been divided/jarred a long time ago, but with so many fry and so little space, and not having moved the jarred ones on to new homes, the unjarred ones are growing together in the grow out. There is a degree of harmony in the grow out, and a hierarchy has well and truely been established. Infact, one seems to be the target of all the other fry and has almost no scales on his back (you'll see him in the video). Although that sounds terrible, there is no outright fighting in the tub....at present. There are several side notes though.

1. There is no guarantee this will stay like this. I'm worried that soon enough, there will be a massacre in that tub. They are fighting fish.

2. The hierarchy be mostly dominated by the larger females. The ones I jarred had almost all been male, thus leaving more, larger girls to become top dog. There are males in there, but they haven't dominated the scene. I don't know if this impacts on how much aggression is present in the tank.

3. The growth of the entire spawn has been stunted. They have yet to reach adult size, and in comparison to their siblings in jars, only a couple seem to be of a good size. This may be why they haven't started warring, as they have yet to reach sexual maturity due to the close living arrangements. I'm sure that at some stage they'll get bigger and need to be separated.

4. I think that if I was to remove any of the larger fish, the chain of command will be destroyed, and I'll see alot more fin damage and/or dead fish.

The videos below are of the spawn I'm discussing. The first vid shows the ones still in the grow out. Some still very small/stunted. Some with minor fin damage. One that must be the target of every other fish's attention with no scales on his back. The second vid shows the jarred fry (just after a water change, so some are a little overwhelmed and not very active). You can see a massive difference in the size of the fishes and fin development in comparison to the unjarred fry. Yes, a couple had been fin biting in their jars and don't have the best fins, but besides that, you can see that the jarred ones really do reach their full potential, whereas the unjarred fry will never look as good. Overall, the recommendation is the same... Jar them. Not a good idea to keep more than one male in the same tank.

[Yanagi]

I did keep a group of females in with my Angels, no issues... Of course my Angels aren't even close to full size yet. I tried with a male long fin (females were moved out and I had no where else to put him at the time) and it just didn't work in a tank with that much flow and large (pearl) gouramis. I reckon I could get away with a plakat no trouble.. And yes, Plakat is a short finned fighter, male or female.

I will be keeping my Imbellis with Angels, too.

[fishbites]

My comments were based on actual experience similar to Paul's.... the number of fish in the tank (over 200 from one spawn) ensured that no single fish was 'picked on' all the time.... very few torn fins and quite a friendly bunch of fish was the result - 20 siblings went to a LFS and all went into a tank together and the LFS owner and customers were amazed (but told the reason this was possible) .... as numbers get lower and space becomes more available the territorial nature of the fish comes out more.... Of course what I didn't mention was that sometimes there's a rogue fish that has to be removed but generally the principle of overstocking and over filtering allows for this to happen (as in African cichlids) - less than about 40 fish I'd say best not to tempt fate.... the big disadvantage of having so many fish in a tank is keeping filtration / water quality at a high level through many regular water changes - that's the part I didn't like!!! :)

[forever_and_a_day]

not much to add, but since i've yet to keep more than one male, i can only say that sororities are pretty fun (if 'fun' is what you are after) i like watching them attack my bamboo skewer when I go to feed them.

Also, in my experience, most fish get pretty interactive once they realise you=food. right now my community fishes all swarm up to the side of the glass where my face is; I've got rummynose tetras, cardinal tetras, neon tetras and guppies in there pretty boring mix

Edited October 3, 2011 by MT Syndrome

[SiameseFightingFist]

Thanks for all the responses. I did mention the 'impossible dream' very early on in this thread, and while there are some encouraging signs in the rare-ish cases of multiple bettas living together, I don't think I'll be trying it any time soon, not unless I have multiple tanks set up and ready to go as soon as one or two of them start to show signs of aggression, which isn't going to happen any time soon (one can dream).

Speaking of multiple tanks, I don't know how you guys do it, don't the bettas produce a few hundred fry per spawn? How do you have that many tanks at hand for any given spawn?

Or even jars, although I can't imagine keeping them in jars for too long?