Cloudy Ammonia

[louu]

I have used this in cycling one of my tanks, a little 21L one which has finally taken on (its taken forever) but as the time draws nearer to put my fish in I have grown increasingly worried about this ammonia. What worries me the most is that when I shake the bottle it foams and Im told it shouldnt do this

My mum picked up this ammonia for me when she went to the shops and it calls itself cloudy ammonia (Homebrand) it is quite cloudy and is very pale white it doesnt list ingredients but simply says 20g/L Ammonia as NH3. I was thinking it may be cloudy becuase they messed with the ph or its a lower grade ammonia

Does anyone know of some definate problems with cloudy ammonia? Has anyone used this particular type before?

Any and all opinions welcome! :)

[splendidbetta]

Cloudy ammonia is not safe to use because it contains detergent.

[louu]

I was afraid of that *sigh* That means my tank is unusable now isnt it and everything in it.... Damn I just bought that heater or could I bleach it?

Dont they have to list ingredients or maybe thats just food.

anyway better to have found out this way then by putting a fish in there! Thank you!

[paul]

I wouldn't necessarily bleach... just wash! Detergent will get diluted out and shouldn't be an ongoing issue if washed adequately.

I had read about others using ammonia in cycling a tank, but wasn't sure how and with what, but I do know that you can get ammonia used in cooking that should be safe (if it's fit for human consumption then it can't be that bad for fish). You get it at most grocery stores in the flour/baking isle and it's used as alternative to baking powder as a rising agent. I comes in powder form. No idea how much you would need to do fishless cycling.

I haven't read the stuff on fishless cycling on this forum, but if your going to do it, might be worth the read if you haven't already.

[splendidbetta]

You could try rinsing everything very well, allowing it to stay in the sun for a few days and turning opaque objects onto their other side halfway through, and re-rinsing. Porous objects like sponge or rocks may need to be discarded, or rinsed repeatedly, but I am not sure how well this would work. Boiling heatproof objects in the oven/microwave might be effective to degrade the detergent too, but I am not sure.

[louu]

Most of it was going to be put away and most likely never to be used again BUT if I can save the actually tank and heater then its not a big deal at all! That makes me much happier!

Ive never heard of cooking ammonia before but a quick google search has confirmed this but Im not sure about using powder for cycling has anyone done this before? or does someone have an ammonia source that is tried and tested

Thanks Paul and splendidbetta for your help :)

[Chuckie]

stop! don't panic! I used cloudy ammonia every time I ever did a fishless cycle, and all was fine. Admittedly that was about hmmmm .... 12 years ago, but are you all sure there is detergent in the cloudy ammonia? And if so, why didn't it have any effect all all on my N. brichardi?

[BettaBetta]

Re Bleach ... when we re-charge our Purigen (filter media) sachets, the manufacturer dictates that it is to be soaked in a strong solution of bleach until it goes back to its original colour. The sachets are then simply soaked in dechlorinated water (Prime) at an extra/double dose if feeling extra cautious. Bleach rinses out/off just fine without the need to jump through flaming hoops, ditto this treatment for rocks, wood etc etc.

[splendidbetta]

That's interesting to know Lisa.

Everything I can find says modern cloudy ammonia contains soap. I also found a Material Safety Data Sheet to confirm the contents of cloudy ammonia:

http://www.huntersproducts.com.au/docs/Clo...monia_061CF.PDF

There are a couple possibilities: the concentration of soap in the ammonia solution plus tank water is too low to have noticeable health effects in fish, OR the concentration of soap in the water degrades over time due to physical/chemical factors (e.g. light and heat), or from being metabolised by microbes, so is safe for fish when cycling is completed.

Did you only try this on brichardi Lisa? Could it affect other species?

[Chuckie]

I only have a clear recollection of using it in a tank that housed bricahrdi. It's possible I also used it for other cichlid tanks, African and SA, as that is what I was running at the time.

[Billphil]

Are you certain that cloudy ammonia contains detergents or is it surfactants (detergents are just a class of surfactants). I never had any trouble when I used cloudy ammonia in tanks

[splendidbetta]

From my reading and studying, detergent surfactants are just surfactants that are used in cleaning. Detergents and other surfactants all have the same property of being attracted to water on one end, and repelled by water on the other end, of the surfactant molecule. This property means that surfactants can be incorporated into cell membranes and can disrupt them, bursting the cell. So whether a surfactant is a detergent or not does not really matter in this case unless comparing two molecules with significantly different cell damaging activity.

I do not know for certain what type of surfactant is used in cloudy ammonia, because unfortunately no manufacturer seems to think it's necessary to name that ingredient. However, it seems likely that chemicals such as Sodium lauryl sulfate or Ammonium lauryl sulfate are used, as these are commonly used in cleaning products. Notably, the first one is also used in biotechnology for degrading cell membranes to extract DNA.

These two chemicals are apparently easily biodegraded (by microbes) http://www.heraproject.com/files/3-E-04-HE...%20web%20wd.pdf . It's possible that within the amount of time it takes to cycle a tank, with such small concentrations of surfactant added to the tank anyway, hardly any remaining surfactant is left to harm fish.

If actual soaps are used in cloudy ammonia, and they are added to hard water, then they drop out of solution and may not be able to affect fish that way, unless ingested.

[louu]

I dont think my other post worked but its pretty useless now anyway lol

hmm hmm all sounds a bit risky. To be perfectly honest Im very tempted to do some huge water changes and take out anything spongey or particularly porous and try my luck, you see I have been trying to cycle this tank for four months! ITS 21 LITRES!!! dear me! (first tank cycle) But I know if this fish dies because I was too lazy thats gonna be much worse then having to do a few water changes a week for a bit longer.

Thank you for your help and opinions

It would be good to know a definate reason why it worked for some but still has these certain ingredients in it, I would also like to know what these little red flecks are some kind of precipitation? (if thats the right word yr 9 science didnt rub off on me much)

[BettaBetta]

Due to the increasing difficulty in sourcing pure ammonia both in USA & here, I've read & spoken to several people who've actually resorted to using their own urine & apparently it works equally as well, if not better. Before everyone gags, says eeeewwww & carrys on like pork chops, it's actually as close to sterile as you'll get.

[paul]

Love it... interesting concept, and it should work... however (aside from the visual I just got of all ausaqua members standing or squatting over their fish tanks ) urine contains almost no ammonia... Just to be a stickler for technicalities...The ammonia has been metabolised by the body to urea and then excreted by the kidneys into the urine. The urea needs to be broken down by bacteria into various nitrogen containing products (ammonia, nitrates and nitrites). This all fits nicely into the nitrogen cycle but technically urine is not a source of ammonia directly (and although in most of us it is sterile, by no means is it "pure").

[splendidbetta]

If you've been taking any medications, they could end up in the tank via your urine, and unless they degrade rapidly to safe compounds before you add fish, they could be affected by them. It is also conceivable for your own naturally produced hormones and other chemicals produced by your own body and diet to be excreted in your urine. In high enough concentrations this could cause things like Demasculinizing of male fish due to exposure to estrogen.

[stubbskm]

A safe way to cycle a tank is to use the product CYCLE. It will add ammonia to the tank plus the other bacteria to establish your filter. We fully cycled 10 2 foot tanks with a sump and goldfish in six weeks using cycle. The livebearers' bank took about 7-8 weeks and was the same size and was understocked.

[louu]

*UPDATE*

I have put my betta into this tank and have had him in there almost a week. He has really come alive and is loving his HUGE tank never seen him so active so thats all been goiong well. I did two full water changes within two days before I put some goldfish in and only had a very minor re-cycle (Bio load is tiny)

I wouldn't use this ammonia for anything other than betta's and goldfish because it did foam very slightly when shaken

Thanks for your help!

[Neffy]

....... 0.0 .......... peeing in tanks

[Bec]

I used the home brand cloudy ammonia to set up a tank about a month ago (about 1 1/2 foot). After it cycled I did an 80% water change and did not vacuum gravel or rinse any filter material before addining fish (as per instructions). It now holds five girls, 2 dwarf gourami and a cat fish and I am having no problems with the fish in it ... all very active, healthy and happy. Having said that, I did not realise cloudy amonia had detergent in it ... I'll know for next time! :)