BT's Goals

20 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

So you all know I'm on the hunt for green: http://ausaqua.net/f...opic=15292&st=0

And I'm breeding CT's. So what I want to do now is clearly state my current goals and get advice from those with expereince on the best way of getting there, particularly what stock I should be looking to get into my fishroom.

Goal 1: Green CT's

I currently have three female irid turquiose CT's, 1 possibly half-dragon male turquiose CT, 1 male irid turquiose HM

Through the ongoing discussions and research, I think I need to bring into this mix:

- Additional metallic green or full-dragon green CT's. If CT's aren't available, I'd work with HM or SD.

- Also needed are carriers of the red-loss gene so I'm thinking green pastels, or platinums (on order) - same tail shapes as above.

- Yellow cambodian females - same tail shapes as above. This should give me the nr1 gene and make any green look much less turquoise (the aim is to go for grass green). Do I need to use the platinum if I introduce the yellow? Or would that depend on the red-gain being present instead of red-loss? Or would the nr1 gene make the red-loss/gain gene obselete? (Obviously still figuring this one out...)

So three or four additional fish for this work - yes/no - any other suggestions?

Goal 2: Black/white Butterfly CT's

This is a new one the wife has recently laid on me, but after looking around, I can see why she loves them. May have to see if I can slip in a green version as well ;)/>/>/>

I currently have no stock to work this line.

I think I'll need:

- Butterfly stock when/if available but barring that...

- Melano male CT or maybe a male or female Black Lace CT (can the cello banding be bred out and/or changed to white?)

- To gain butterfly from straight CT stock, I mix in Cambodian and selectively breed from there - is that correct? Would the yellow female cambodian from the green CT line be okay for this?

- Then to remove the red, I need to work in the red-loss from my platinum - yes? Or is this the same situation as asked above with red-loss/gain v nr1?

So possibly another four or so individuals for this line...:)/>/>/>

Side Quests

There will always be the opportunity to mix and match between lines to come up with something else. In this case the obvious targets would be:

Dragon CT x Yellow cambodian CT/HM - looking for a yellow sun

A black CT line

Maybe even a pastel/platinum line

I may need to buy a few beanie boxes...

So, putting any side quests aside, any suggestions or advice on stock required to begin my goals?

All comments appreciated

BT

Edited by Brenton

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Posted

Cambodian will only give you light bodies, not variegated fins to create butterfly patterns. You would have to introduce a butterfly or a marble to a solid coloured betta to create a butterfly from scratch and selectively breed from there.

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Posted

That's what's so great about this forum and the people on it - lots of experience and the willingness to share with others...thanks for that J

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Posted

I wouldn't spawn further with the turquoise HM. Just focus on the turquoise CTs. Maybe find a copper ct male to add to that line to see what that might bring. I would work a couple of generations before introducing anything else.

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Posted

Guys -

So a butterfly pair, or marble CT X black Melano CT to go from scratch but ace the Cambodian?

And a copper male for the green line, copper being steel with two modifiers, so blbl++ - is that because copper is easier to source than metallic green (BlBl++), or because metallic green is reportedly difficult to identify with the naked eye from metallic turquoise? I've not actually seen examples of the two so I have no idea.

Put the HM on the bench for these lines, but available to play with when time and tanks allow.

The yellow Cambodian female is a yes then, as is the platinum male? Cant hurt to have the red-loss and the nr1 gene in the fish room can it?

J - this doesn't mean I don't want some of your yellow CT's when they come online ;)

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Posted

Yes copper is easier to identify. Split the line when you add the copper so you have both metallic and non-metallic lines.

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Posted

Makes sense.

Question: When the line is split like this, does any further spawns from the non-metallic line (may be something of interest to explore, and keeps my options open), become a new F1 or do I then start calling them F3a and F3b?

Is it when I bring in new blood that I revert to a new F1 for documentation purposes?

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Posted

Been doing some sums. The caveat here is the assumption my male part-dragon will bring at least one modifier to the table - which should be a fairly safe bet...I hope. Of course, this is also a best case scenario with everything going right with each spawn...touch wood, salt over shoulder, etc, etc...

The Green CT Line

F1 (In tank now @ 4weeks): Metallic Turquoise = BlBl+nm - 5 months till spawning F2 (Very much hoping I can get a viable pair, or at least a viable female from this current spawn).

F2 (January 2014) Metallic Green in F2 = BlBl++

May-July 2014 Need to source a yellow Cambodian female CT

F3 (July 2014) Metallic Green x Yellow Cambodian = BlBlCc+nm

F4 (January 2015) Metallic Green/Cambodian hetero sibling cross = BlBlcc++

F5 (July 2015) Metallic Green/Cambo homozygous = 100% BlBlcc++ grass green CT’s beginning 2016

So, 'in thoery', I should get to the way point for green sometime in 2016 :) I hope you can all wait that long for green CT's.

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Posted

You're not allowing for obsession to take over and force you to do a spawn a month.

When I said split off I really meant reserve some of the non-metallic. So they would just continue the F numbering in sequence. When you add the copper that could either be a new P1 or you could continue tracking the daughters through the F number.

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Posted (edited)

Okay - P1...daughters through F??

I've obviously missed something here. Can someone point me in the direction of an article on how we refer to each generation and why?

Thank you in advance

BT

Oh...not sure I'll have any non-metallic. The male here is at least part dragon so all fry will carry metallic modifiers > whether this shows up or not is something else entirely...

As for the obsession - this is the schedule for this line. I cant really spawn 1 month old fry...or can I...

I'll have the butterfly line going as well, and then there may be the odd side issue going on...it may not be a spawn every month, but it wont be far off :)

Edited by Brenton

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Posted

Is this explanation by Callatya, on this seemingly non-used forum, what I should be using:

http://fishprofiles.com/forums/Cichlid_Central/Meaning_Of_F1_F2_L44_/37650/

But the mention of tracking females through the F designation still throws me. Using F to designate filial was what I thought to begin with. I didn't know about P.

So...if I cross one of the female fry currently in the tank, back with the sire, does this then become a P designation or an F2? Or is P used only to show the Sire and Dame at the start of

the line?

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Posted

Adding a new goal - CTPK

I've been wooed into a greater appreciation of the short fin and their general hardierness (is that even a word?) compared to their long fin counterparts.

I've been searching around, but there doesn't seem to be a great deal of information around, or that many pictures. Is this an indication of not many doing this, or have I just not looked hard enough yet. The idea of continuing to strive for my original goals, only in miniature (if you will), seems kind of cool to me.

little suns, little moons, little CT's, little greens, little butterflies - sounds cute doesn't it? But would they sell?

I've also decided to do all this with dragons to try and advance that area of knowledge as well.

And marbles - I've been somewhat seduced by them as well.

So, plakat CT's, HM, dragon, butterfly, and marbles will be the mainstay of my fish room going forward, with long fin input mainly from the female side if required.

Is there IBC standards for this or are they only concerned with plakats in general? Am I able to enter plakat CT's into the general CT category?

Still need more info on the P and F designations as well please :)

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Posted

The CTPK is hard because there's not much fin to play with. You have to fit in sufficient ray divisions as well as the webbing reduction. I haven't seen many good examples. It's been a number of years now since the first attempts surfaced. You would have thought they would have been perfected by now.

I would only use P for the beginning of the line. The offspring of a back cross would still be the next F number. Otherwise you would just lose track of the line.

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Posted

The CTPK is a trial class in Area 2. In area 7 it must be shown in E1 Colour and Form Variations with a label describing the variation.

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Posted

The CTPK is hard because there's not much fin to play with. You have to fit in sufficient ray divisions as well as the webbing reduction. I haven't seen many good examples. It's been a number of years now since the first attempts surfaced. You would have thought they would have been perfected by now.

Ah good - I'd hate to start something that is easy and been done to death....

I would only use P for the beginning of the line. The offspring of a back cross would still be the next F number. Otherwise you would just lose track of the line.

Good - I was on the right track then. The P designation threw me off...but, if/when I get to F4 and decide I need to bring in new blood, Does this then become a new starting point?

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Posted

I personally would continue the numbering as long as I was using a daughter in that line. But I don't know if that breaks some golden rule. Although even as I say that I think it would depend on what I was wanting to track. If you introduce a male with a particular trait maybe restart the numbering. Ultimately I think it's a personal preference.

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Posted

Example: P0 Male HMPK x Female CT -> F1 hetro CTPK -> F2 brother sister cross from F1 for better form and homo CTPK -> F3 same as F2 -> F4 same as F2/3 -> F5 unrelated male CTPK x F4 female -> F6 daughter cross back to father -> F7..., but if decide I want to try for cross rays, then I bring in a male with those characteristics and his line becomes F1, but any further sibling, parent/offspring cross from the original line would be F8. Same goes for selective breeding for colour - if I bring in, oh, lets say a green CTPK to breed with my wonderfully formed F6 female, then that offspring becomes F1...

We should have wonderful cross ray green CTPK by about F23 :)

***(I know cross rays is not going to happen with CTPK)***

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Posted

And of course sometimes you might cross out to a female but may still want to continue the numbering because you've used a male from your line. I don't know. I haven't got so far that it's been an issue. Nice problem to have though.

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Posted

here's hoping one day I'll be able to have that problem...at least that's the aim ;)

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Posted (edited)

Thought I'd revisit this thread as it's been a while and my goals have become a little more focused and less pie in the sky or so grandiose :)

Goal 1: Green CT's

Still is and will always remain a central goal, but is now focused solely on the use of CTPK's.

Current stock:

F1 Male midfin to be crossed with his sister (male is blue marble with heavy black influence. Female is turquoise)

F2 male CTPK (female sibling passed before spawning could be arranged - will cross with female DTPK instead)

Associated stock:

DTPK spawn in growout tanks to improve form

F2 CTPK recessive line to remove red wash

Goal 2: Black/white Butterfly CT's

This is a new one the wife has recently laid on me, but after looking around, I can see why she loves them. Still on the back burner.

I currently have no stock to work this line.

At some point I will need:

- Butterfly stock...preferably black and white
- Should be able to work in the CTPK DT and recessive lines into this project to give me the webbing reduction, form, and colouration...need to be careful of cambo or I could lose the black on the body.

Side Quests

Yellow Dragon half sun - possible result from the recessive line

A black CTPK line - this is becoming my winter project. The Black Orchid CTPK line currently stands at F2 with Pairs ready for F3

A pastel/platinum line - possible side result of recessive line

I still have a MG male on the side lines (may become another winter project alongside the black orchids.)

And I have two females I would love to work into the projects that I've hung onto for quite sometime now. One is a lovely green HM girl - her green is very good and would do well in enhancing my hunt for green line...it's just finding the right time to work it in. The second girl is a green dragon. Her green is only present on the last third of her body and all of her caudal. She's a little over a year old now and the result of one of my first successful spawns. She's almost a pet really, but I'd love to give her a shot in the spawn tank at some point. I also have a male Gold HMPK....but these girls and boys may never get their chance to shine because I have no space and no time to do all the lines I want :(

....the green dragon girl with the gold male could be interesting though....

Edited by Brenton

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